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Post by Yoki on Feb 13, 2005 20:28:45 GMT
I meant to reply to what you asked a little earlier Stewart. Thankfully the academic year has started,and hopefully I will now get time to myself. I have never struggled with the concept of reincarnation but do have the advantage of a father who followed this line of thought and so I was exposed to it at an early age. In some ways the people who come to this way of thinking on there own as he did after a very strict Dutch reformed church up bringing are the brave and forward thinkers .I don’t know if he struggled with this alien point of view but I do know in old he rejected it and turned once more towards what he was exposed to as a child. This reinforces my belief that your childhood environment is the biggest influence of your life and never quite leaves you. I can imagine that for some one, who has always accepted the one life policy, reincarnation may be a bit difficult to swallow. If you accept that as individuals we are in a state of growth then doing it over a number of life's makes more sense. The laws of karma combined with the law of reincarnation both support a law of evolution .It provides a part answer to the complete inequality that exists among us and even gives some solace to our suffering The most fascinating thing about reincarnation is not that we may have been Shakespeare or Elvic and believe me there are those who think they were, but that time after time we return among people that we have lived and interacted with before .The personal dynamics within family groups, relationships, friendships, the work place and even lodges remanifest life after life in varying forms until we are able to straighten them out. So the accepted wisdom that relationships are the greatest teachers in life applies even more so within the concept of reincarnation.
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Feb 21, 2005 8:44:11 GMT
In belated reply to Taylorsman, may I say I don't intend to be acerbic, and if there is a laconic perversity in my expression, it is an affliction due to my poet's soul: I prefer to express original thoughts in an original manner. This may give the surface impression that I'm subtly taking the pi55 out of everyone, but that's an accidental effect.
I know you say that Englishmen these days have no taste for the strict discipline and piquant flavour of rational debate. In contrast, this national malady of blandly accepting whatever people say without contest is rather a limp handshake for me, as half-heartedly done as it is unpleasant to endure.
If I am pedantic, that is because I prefer finely- delineated facts over blurry outlines, and in their absence, a solid argument, or at least an amusing idea convincingly expounded. I don't ask much.
As to the matter under discussion, it seems to me to have been a philosophical conceit to teach the universality of experience, rather than an immobile obelisk of faith. As such it appears to me to be a simpler and more elegant solution simply to suppose that as a literal process Reincarnation does not exist, rather than squirm under the weight of improbability.
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Post by whistler on Feb 21, 2005 8:53:33 GMT
If I am pedantic, that is because I prefer finely- delineated facts over blurry outlines, and in their absence, a solid argument, or at least an amusing idea convincingly expounded. I don't ask much. As to the matter under discussion, it seems to me to have been a philosophical conceit to teach the universality of experience, rather than an immobile obelisk of faith. As such it appears to me to be a simpler and more elegant solution simply to suppose that as a literal process Reincarnation does not exist, rather than squirm under the weight of improbability. Ruff - In somethings solid delineated facts do not exist on either side of an argument - and to be pedantic just creates barriers to your discoveries - you appear to expect everything new to you to stack up against bench marks of your existing knowledge - Things don't always work that way.. The idea that nobody exists but self and every thing is in your imagination is totally unprovable one way or another -- so is your reasoning going to stop there
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Feb 23, 2005 1:23:30 GMT
Look, there's nothing to make anyone think Reincarnation should exist, so why on earth should I bother my ar5e defending my decision not to believe in it? It can't be proved either way; but arguments in favour only become contrived and unlikely.
Let it be like my rationale of a belief in God: something I can't prove, but which I'm inclined to believe in.
That'll do for me.
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Post by zz-Midlander on Feb 23, 2005 5:52:58 GMT
A couple of years ago I had a very interesting conversation with a Hypnotist ( not of the 'stage' variety) who had 'regressed' people back to their past lives, (? supposedly). She said that she was neither convinced or unconvinced in the reality of reincarnation; but did point out that in many cases the regressed person's the previous lives retold under hypnosis usually involved them in being of some social standing: ie A 'lady in Rome', a Nobleman, a Victorian lady etc. etc. Nobody was ever a 'medieval dung shifter' or a 'Sedan chair carrier'! Also she claimed that the regressees' nationality always seemed to be the same in the past life as it is in their current one. Anyone on the Forum brave enough to be regressed as an experiment?? ( Taylorsman, YOU may have been the Duke of Sussex! ;D )
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Post by a on Feb 23, 2005 7:21:45 GMT
the regressed person's the previous lives retold under hypnosis usually involved them in being of some social standing: ie A 'lady in Rome', a Nobleman, a Victorian lady etc. etc. Nobody was ever a 'medieval dung shifter' or a 'Sedan chair carrier'! This also interests me, as to the why? I do remember a tv programme experimenting with this years ago now and one chap was a businessman, a trader at a port or something. In fact I do have more than a passing interest here given some that some have speculated to me of forum as to who they think that I was in previous lives. the funny thing is that such matters are of no real interest to me. It is who we are today that matters here and now. It would probably not suprise you to hear that I suspect that I was around in Ancient Egyptian days at some stage (as in living in Egypt as an Egyptian). Which is clearly a different nationality.I have toyed with this idea but always chosen against it for a variety of reasons. It is not a matter of being brave Midlander, it is a matter of opening doors and the consequences thereof. ;D ;D
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Post by whistler on Feb 23, 2005 9:39:18 GMT
A couple of years ago I had a very interesting conversation with a Hypnotist ( not of the 'stage' variety) who had 'regressed' people back to their past lives, (? supposedly). She said that she was neither convinced or unconvinced in the reality of reincarnation; but did point out that in many cases the regressed person's the previous lives retold under hypnosis usually involved them in being of some social standing: ie A 'lady in Rome', a Nobleman, a Victorian lady etc. etc. Nobody was ever a 'medieval dung shifter' or a 'Sedan chair carrier'! Also she claimed that the regressees' nationality always seemed to be the same in the past life as it is in their current one. Anyone on the Forum brave enough to be regressed as an experiment?? ( Taylorsman, YOU may have been the Duke of Sussex! ;D ) I have been present during "regressions" and have regressed the odd person in a teaching situation.. My conclusions are not the same as the lady you went. The situation of a person in past lives are many and varied - whilst not specifically a dung carrier, but certainly most have been quite ordinary. I have never been regressed but have become aware of a couple of past lives - I wasn't anybody special in any of them - The knowledge of those past lives doesn't in any way effect my life today, I just acknowledge they happened . It is not necessary to use hypnosis to regress, there are other quite simple ways - but it is very silly to play at regression - it should only be done with a person who knows what they are doing, and understands what is going on - If played as a party game you could end up a very screwed up person. On a theoretical level - If you understand the theory of the advancement of the soul through many lives - with that advancement being determined by merit - it follows that you would have been a lesser person in your past lives
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Post by a on Feb 23, 2005 11:21:30 GMT
If you understand the theory of the advancement of the soul through many lives - with that advancement being determined by merit - it follows that you would have been a lesser person in your past lives Whistler I suspect that you used the word "lesser" to make it easier for some to think about and take on board. I wonder whether not a "lesser" person, but just a "less evolved in this existance" person? Actually "evolved" is also not quite right, perhaps "less learnt from ones travels". No this is getting too complex. Lets just stay with "lesser" it is easier. But I ask the question, is a bin man any less of a person than a Prime Minister? A carer and less of a man than a Chartered Accountant? A carpenter any less of a man than a King? No I don't think so. What matters is what you have learnt from your various incarnations and that you have made progression. I for one hope to break the reincarnation cycle and move on to other other tasks once I leave this lifetime. Though I realise that whether or not I achieve this will depend on what I do in this incarnation. I just hope that my heart weight favourably when my time of judgement comes. As an aside I have been wearing a tie depicting the Weighing of the Heart ceremony for years, it is my favourite tie. I am however only just coming to really understand and appreciate its significance. There are clues all around if you can develop the eyes to see, and the ears to listen.
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 23, 2005 11:41:27 GMT
"( Taylorsman, YOU may have been the Duke of Sussex! ) "
Midlander, if you think about it that would tie in well with one of the ideas associated with re-incarnation, to atone in the following life for wrongs committed in the previous one. So If I HAD been the Duke of Sussex this might account both for the interest in and desire to join Freemasonry that I have had from my early teens and my joining and being so keen on the Higher Degrees beyond the Craft which he of course suppressed in his lifetime.
I have never had any reason to think that I was Duke of Sussex in a previous life. As regards to being regressed, in principle I have no objection if the hypnotist was properly experienced but would be worried about any residual mental problems this could cause , e.g. schizophrenia?
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Post by zz-Midlander on Feb 23, 2005 18:40:07 GMT
Whistler, good to hear that not all those who have been regressed are so 'high born' so to speak. Nice to know there are some of us ordiinary mortals involved! One thing that has always puzzled me abou reincarnation: Are we (humanity) the same 'group' of souls that are reborn over and over? I mean, If I was Henry viii in a past life, his soul doesn't exist anymore - nor will mine if i'm reborn in 100 years time as 'Joe Bloggs the builder'. Or are new souls being added to top up the pot? Are some waiting in the wings? All very deep I know... Taylorsman - of course I was being flippant re the Duke of Sussex; it's far more likely that you are Thomas Dunckerley reincarnated!!!
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Post by whistler on Feb 23, 2005 18:43:11 GMT
Stewart, Lesser person - we are all on a journey to ultimate perfection = so in a previous life we will have normally been a less perfect person then we are now. . Often in a regression the person will find themselves going back to a different place and a different time - sometimes it can be very traumatic if in that life they had been somebody who was nasty, or if they had been on the receiving end of unpleasantness. sometimes the past life leaves a shadow on somebodies current life, and when they understand the reason probems can be resolved . Some people resceptive to being regressed can be taken back through many lives than others
Taylorman If you wish to be regressed- becareful
Do your homework about the person who would work with you. When I regress people, it is part of an esoteric course that I run now and then. I do it to show the students an aspect of life. I am very very careful who I regress and very very careful to keep complete control over the session.. It is never a party Game. Having said all that - The expression on the faces of the person after being regressed., is neat. It is as if they have discovered something that they have always known - but didn't know they knew it.
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Post by whistler on Feb 23, 2005 19:03:02 GMT
One thing that has always puzzled me abou reincarnation: Are we (humanity) the same 'group' of souls that are reborn over and over? I mean, If I was Henry viii in a past life, his soul doesn't exist anymore - nor will mine if i'm reborn in 100 years time as 'Joe Bloggs the builder'. Or are new souls being added to top up the pot? Are some waiting in the wings? All very deep I know... Yes it is deep and can be as deep as you wish.. There is debate about Soul Groups - exactly how they work _ do not have a firm opinion.- How big do you make your group.. I sort of understand the group soul concept when thinking about lessor life forms like insects and plants. Your example of Henry Viii - think of the soul differently - Henry viii , or Midlander are not souls - a soul has chosen to become Henry viii, and midlander the physical body. After your body has been destroyed - your soul exists and until it returns to earth for another life it will have memories of all the lives it has lived - when it returns to earth it will normally not remember those lives, in order that it can learn the lessons required in the next earth life. You did ask ;D
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Post by whistler on Feb 23, 2005 19:17:00 GMT
Middlepillar is suitably qualified to comment, and re-inforces what penfold said in his earlier post - there is no mention of reincarnation in freemasonry. To my mind reincarnation is a spiritual/religious philisophy - a fundamental requirement for some religions, but not a part of freemasonry Just Read through the Topic again Bod... It would not be at all difficult to put Reincarnation firmly into the 3rd Degree Drama
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Post by zz-Midlander on Feb 23, 2005 19:22:10 GMT
Whistler, if the Henry viiii example is as you say, then we are not 'individual' souls, so there must be a finite number of souls either incarnated, or waiting to be incarnated? As the same number would keep evolving until all were perfected. Finding it difficult to explain what I mean!
Another theory that I read somewhere is that we all start off as the lowest form of life (ameboa?), and over many, many lifetimes evolve through the animal kindom, until we are reborn as Humans. Then the real work starts!!
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Post by leonardo on Feb 23, 2005 19:30:26 GMT
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Post by leonardo on Feb 23, 2005 19:37:24 GMT
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Post by whistler on Feb 23, 2005 19:44:41 GMT
Whistler, if the Henry viiii example is as you say, then we are not 'individual' souls, so there must be a finite number of souls either incarnated, or waiting to be incarnated? As I understand at least from when we reach the status of being human we are individual souls - when a soul has travelled through all the pathways to perfection it returns to the creator.. An individual soul may decide to be Henry, to learn or achieve something and when it returns to the Ether, it may decide to go back to the earth plain as Midlander to learn something different. So can there be people (souls) on the earth for the first time - the answer must be yes - also remember the vast size of the cosmos - it is possible that a soul doesn't take it's complete journey on Planet Earth..... It may be possible when regressing somebody you find the person goes back to all sorts of dimensions, I haven't done so but I can't see any reason why not. Yes why not. in terms of evolution of the soul that makes sense.. Then the real work starts!!
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Post by a on Feb 23, 2005 19:54:28 GMT
Whistler
Thank you for the clarification. Please forgive my perspectives as having got here without any esoteric training I can only go on what I have come to know through internal work. But I am brushing up on the theory.
Midlander
Take your time and the words will come.
The way that I currently understand it (simplified to make this as short as I can), we are all energy, and that energy that is everything is what some people call God. Everything comes from here. This energy created places where experiences can be gained. One of these places is called Earth.
So parts of this energy drips down and forms into Man, or the planet, or a tree, or whatever. Each drop can be likened to a soul. One of these souls decided that at this point in time it would be Midlander.
It could be likened to a computer game (or a prison) where if you learn your lesson (reform after punishment) you go up to the next level (get released to heaven), and if you fail you will reincarnate again to redo the level in another body (sent back to jail).
But let me stress that the more internal work that I do the more I understand, and hence the above is just a simplified explanation of how I currently understand this issue.
If you see youself as just a physical body then the above will most likely make little sense. You need to work through your body and see it for what it is, and then your personality, after which you may come to be granted some less theoretical understanding of souls and energies.
Please forgive me if I have inadvertently misdirected.
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Post by zz-Midlander on Feb 23, 2005 22:12:47 GMT
Leo, thanks for the links - I haven't explored them fully yet.
Stewart, your 'energy drip theory' sounds fascinating - first time I've heard a reincarnation theory in that context!
The 'computer game' analogy is I suppose, the usual form that reincarnation is viewed - along with all the trappings of Karma etc. The eastern religions are much more attuned to this way of thinking especially Hinduism/ Buddhism of course; although I am not sure how the 'Supreme Being' is visualised by them.
Lots of food for thought thats for sure.
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Post by a on Feb 24, 2005 19:50:53 GMT
Midlander
Another way to look at it, though this is more a reincarnation within your current lifetime, but the principle is the same:-
In the Martial Arts you start as a white belt, get to black, and in time your black belt fades back to white, as you complete the circle. By the time you get to about 8th Dan in JKA anyway as I understand it the more spiritual aspects become relevant.
In Freemasonry you start your journey travelling East for enligtenment, and when you get there you travel west spreading that light to other travellers. At least that is what I understand is suppose to happen. But you will know better than me whether a typical WM is a beacon of light or not, helping guide you on your personal journey.
In both cases you end up back where you started, though is a purer more refined form.
A bit like reincarnation. You start as part of TGAOTU, you come here and you work to get back to finding TGAOTU again. And when you realise where to look it can be a suprise.
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