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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Feb 8, 2005 4:54:30 GMT
I've been reading from Pompeii to.... and notice a fair amount about this subject.
It is one that I hold to personally and feel it would warrant a thread of it's own, it being such a vast topic.
May we please have some reasoned disscussion here on it, but without the waste of antagonism.
If you dissagree on the topic, say so and state your case, similarly if it hold true, explain why, so that this may become a research tool for those interested.
My belief stems from case histories of those reborn rather quicker than is the norm, and the fact that there is so much to learn it needs many periods to do it all.
For most this will be more of a state of "knowing" than of concrete evidence as it is mostly a subjective issue.
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on Feb 8, 2005 5:43:59 GMT
"May we please have some reasoned disscussion here on it, but without the waste of antagonism"
Antagonism seems to mean whenever someone (usually myself) prefers to make logical argument and perform rational cross-examination of the matter in hand, rather than simply accept glib pronouncements.
I have no particular argument to make against Reincarnation. It is a principle which both my mentors, Virgil and Dante, found natural. It is also, in fact, accepted in certain circumstances by the Roman Church and those of the Anglican communion.
The only obvious objection is that one which I have already mentioned on the preceding thread, and which has not yet been countered with an argument at least as amusing. As the population today is bigger than it has ever been before, and people are being born with past lives going back thousands of years, where are all the new ones coming from? Do they also partake of ancient memory, just on a corporate level?
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Feb 8, 2005 7:25:30 GMT
Without trying to upset anyone i feel that reincarnation topic is slightly off link wuth freemasonry . Where is the connection? and not what the esoteric thread is about . This topic has therefore been moved for these reasons for those who want to discuss it . Please note i do not believe "speaking Chaff" is the word for reincarnation and respect its value as a separate topic.
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Post by whistler on Feb 8, 2005 8:46:30 GMT
Not sure if I agree with the respected Mod Staffs on this point. For some Reincarnation is obvious, has any bro ever taken an office and felt they have done it before PS, I met someone who claimed to be his own Grandfather.. also anybody ever seen a link between a new born and a recently depart relative
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Post by penfold on Feb 8, 2005 9:42:24 GMT
I'm with Staffs on this one.
Reincarnation may or maynot exist - I am not in a position to confirm or deny it never having experienced it. ;D However, I am unaware of ANY masonic jurisdiction which states that reincarnation is an active part of it's operational framework, therefore the 'off-topic' section is more appropriate. I would also add that introducing re-incarnation may lead to us crossing the boundaries of religious debate - but that is simply my opinion.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 8, 2005 10:03:39 GMT
Reincarnation may or may not exist. I do not believe that it does. But I willingly and knowledge there are many millions around the world for whom reincarnation is considered a genuine reality. Are they all deluded? Perhaps. The experience of Deja vu is sometimes used to "prove" the existence of reincarnation. But does it really? In my opinion no. I have read that sometimes our brain reacts milliseconds later to what it has actually seen, and this can give us the impression that we are looking at something we have somehow experienced before. I'm not sure if this theory is correct or not but it is an explanation I find easier to accept. But then again, these are only my opinions, and are in no way designs to be offensive. If anyone does take offence by my remarks. Tough!
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 8, 2005 10:07:26 GMT
Ruff, it's not what you say, it's the way that you say it!
I haven't met you, I may do so some day when I visit Glasgow, but you come across as a wee bit too pedantic and sarcastic and sometimes, in my opinion anyway, you inject a tartish and wry humour into your postings which is not to everyone's taste. As an ex-Scot, indeed ex-Glaswegian, myself having lived all of my adult life now in the South East of England (33 of my 52 years), I can understand what informs your postings and can remember the disputatious nature of the Scots, the inclination to enter into sometimes quite heated debates in pubs etc with totoal strangers with no rancour meant nor offence taken by the protagonists. This does not happen down here, especially in this area. Outside of Debating Societies and they now are the reserve of Universities and some of the better schools the average Englishman does not want to enter into heated debates.
So could I ask you to throttle back on the sardonic quips whilst continuing to bless us with the benefit of your erudition and deep knowledge of Languages and History?
As to Reincarnation, I tend towards a belief in it myself though I have no proof. Like all Religion it does depend on a "Leap of Faith" in the end. The number of living bodies on the Earth does not matter as many "souls" will be in a state of non-incarnation at any time. To seek to place limits is as ridiculous as the belief that some hold to that only 144 thousand will be "saved" whatever they construe such a word to mean in this context.
Bro Penfold, unless Staffs has inposed this as Site Owner and Chief Moderator, I was not aware of any boundary here regarding religious discussion as long as there is no deliberate offence given. Yes this is one of the topics prohibited for discussion in Lodges, but this is NOT a Lodge but a Discussion Group. Some other Masonic Fora may ban Religion , that is their affair. I would hope that those who post here are adult enough to mention such matters where relevant to Freemasonry without name calling etc.
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Michael
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... as you have passed through the ceremony of your initiation...
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Post by Michael on Feb 8, 2005 10:12:21 GMT
We discuss a number of non Masonic subjects, and hope we continue to do so. So reincarnation is as valid as any other. As long as we do it in a 'Masonic' way and do not use language or tone that we would not like used towards us.
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Post by a on Feb 8, 2005 10:57:10 GMT
Ok here is my take on this:-
1. Some Freemasons/Fraternities I understand believe that a belief in the immortality of the soul to be rather fundamental to Freemasonry. Now whether this can be related to reincarnation is clearly another question.
2. As someone who is only just beginning to get to grips with esoteric theory, it is clear that the concept of reincarnation is significant in esoteric materials, and more than a few lodges and side orders are rather esoterically orientated. So to some reincarnation again may be rather fundamental.
3. As with all things Masonic as your progress through the degrees new things become available to you, and perhaps at some stage the concept of reincarnation comes up. The trouble is unless you have someone who is senior in all of the orders, who is willing to divulge these things, then how does anyone know for sure whether reincarnation is Masonic?
Which brings me neatly onto:-
4. How does anyone know whether there is any connection between reincarnation and Freemasonry? Evolution, gained through hard internal work may be an answer.
5. Now my personal take. Some years back I was asked by a GM whether or not I believe in reincarnation. I was tempted to say yes but decided to say what at the time I understood and felt comfortable with which was "your can't kill energy." Now since then my understanding has developed, and I realise that coming to accept reincarnation means that your view of our world does change, it has to, for instead of your job your family and your "life" being the centre of your existance on this plane, you realise that it is just a step on the journey, a step with its own challenges, its own lessons, and its own hurdles. And we in this, or in any incarnation, can either take steps back to where we come from, which some may say is God, others may say light, or we can loose ourselfs in the distractions and enjoyments of the physical world, and just keep repeating the process, building up frustrations as we loose sight. But as I say this is a personal take. And my own views do change the more that I learn and understand.
Now what I think is important to remember is that the Masonic world is big, wide and deep, and somewhat fragmented at present. As a result unless you have learnt to develop good internal communications (or be senior in every order and fraternity), how is it possible to know what is Masonic and what isn't, beyond what you are taught in your own Lodge?
This is a little example of a much bigger issue currently facing and destroying Freemasonry from within. But that would be digressing.
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Post by middlepillar on Feb 8, 2005 12:58:46 GMT
Firstly, I have to say I have no problem with a thread on 'Reincarnation' Although I do sympathise with the view it has nothing to do with Freemasonry! My own feelings on the subject are irrelevant at this point, because I am just going to say that I am in most of the Orders in Freemasonry and I have gone through or am in 9 Chairs and in all of what I have done so far the subject of re-incarnation does noy come up. With the exception of course in The Christian Orders wherby there is passing references to 'Christ risen' etc. I am as you know in a lot of 'esoteric' Orders and whilst the ceremonies are both philisophical and spiritual they again do not mention or look at reincarnation. For my own part I am an 'agnostic' on the subject. Withiut proof that means something to me personally I cannot say I truly believe at the same time I am unwilling to throw the idea out of the window! (Maybe I should be a professional fence sitter! Keep the thread rolling and lets see what comes up!
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bod
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Post by bod on Feb 8, 2005 13:13:31 GMT
When the majority of forum members refer to freemasonry they generally mean the craft degrees (I presume) and may even extend that to mean the additional degrees and orders they are members of.
Middlepillar is suitably qualified to comment, and re-inforces what penfold said in his earlier post - there is no mention of reincarnation in freemasonry.
To my mind reincarnation is a spiritual/religious philisophy - a fundamental requirement for some religions, but not a part of freemasonry
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Post by penfold on Feb 8, 2005 13:37:25 GMT
Bro Penfold, unless Staffs has imposed this as Site Owner and Chief Moderator, I was not aware of any boundary here regarding religious discussion as long as there is no deliberate offence given. Yes this is one of the topics prohibited for discussion in Lodges, but this is NOT a Lodge but a Discussion Group. Some other Masonic Fora may ban Religion , that is their affair. I would hope that those who post here are adult enough to mention such matters where relevant to Freemasonry without name calling etc. Fair comment W Bro TM - have re-read the forum rules, and you are quite right - as long as tolerance and due respect is shown there is nothing in the rules about religious discussion being off-limits.
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Post by whistler on Feb 8, 2005 18:47:36 GMT
For some Reincarnation is part of life, and as such is part of Freemasonry - Many esoteric Masonic writers refer to lodge details of times past - information they could have received by Astral Travel or memories from a Past Life - I and others I have known have had that feeling of De Javu in certain offices.. I find it curious that Hubert's posting has pressed so many buttons amongst the Mods - In Fact I will try a new thread and see what happens
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Feb 8, 2005 18:51:50 GMT
Whistler i understand that reincarnation can be a similar rebirth as regards to freemasonry but i think the general topic being discussed was reincarnation itself after physical death and unassociated with freemasonry so i am more than happy to let you discuss that if you wish hence moving the thread .It was not a case about pressing buttons.
It was on the espteric thread and although i admit i am not in such esoteric/hermitic orders where one learns much spiritually i have gone with my instincts and have just noticed MPs post on this also.
I still have trouble pressing the right ones.(so she keeps telling me)
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Feb 8, 2005 19:03:15 GMT
I and others I have known have had that feeling of De Javu in certain offices.. Well for some of you you just cant resist taking the chair again can you
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Post by Yoki on Feb 9, 2005 3:42:02 GMT
As the population today is bigger than it has ever been before, and people are being born with past lives going back thousands of years, where are all the new ones coming from? In reply to the above from Ruff. The first possibility is that there are x amount of souls with only a small number choosing to be born at any given time. As civilisation has improved its sciences it is able to sustain life more effectively. Naturally this has made the opportunity for a earth experience more readily available and as our life style goes beyond mere survival this becomes a more attractive experience .In fact I have read that there are more souls wanting incarnation than there are bodies available. The second theory is that souls are constantly being created with ever more individuals going through the process of evolution, that combined with older souls doing the same would allow for the increase in numbers . If souls were created in an orderly procession then born to live one life on earth numbers would remain fairly even. It is reincarnation+ new souls + a waiting list for incarnation = any kind of logical answer to how the ever increasing number of bodies are insouled.
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Feb 9, 2005 7:09:14 GMT
First of all to staffs & Co. Moderators, I bow to your right to place this where you see fit.
In defence of my original location, it was because for me and most Comasons REINCARNATION is virtually an accepted fact.
Our "Fictitious Head" -- T.H.O.A.T.F is epitomised in our Order by "The Count St Germain" also regarded as incarnating as Francis Bacon, Valentine Andreus, amongst others. Whilst we do not have specific proof of the above it is generally accepted by our Brn. thou' not a requirement.
I am however greatly pleased to see the interest this has generated as to me it is ONE subject that does require a good deal of debate, and as in all things Masonic, Each Bro. must decide for themselves.
My main aim in requesting reasoned debate was so that we dealt with each individuals study of the subject, and avoided amusing tho' whimsical side issues. There are plenty of other areas on this forum to participate in that.
I suppose I'm coming from a scientific approach here, as there must be innumerable sides to this topic.
LET THE DEBATE PROGRESS 7 STIMULATE
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Feb 9, 2005 7:14:49 GMT
STEWART,
Your comments have hit the nail on the head.
If one starts with the acceptance of Reincarnation, that presents a totally different BASE from which to live one's life.
Contrary to Penfold's comment I don't beleive this subject is at all RELIGIOUS, in that it is not an imposed doctrine or requirement.
For me it certainly IS "SPIRITUAL" which is what esoteric freemasonry is all about.
I eagerly await Russell's viewpoint.
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Post by penfold on Feb 9, 2005 7:36:45 GMT
Contrary to Penfold's comment I don't beleive this subject is at all RELIGIOUS, in that it is not an imposed doctrine or requirement. Guess that's me told! Thanks for the clarification of your point of view Hubert, within the context of this discussion it isn't religious, however it does form part of some religious beliefs. Not that it matters as I've now read the rules again!
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Post by a on Feb 9, 2005 9:15:23 GMT
If one starts with the acceptance of Reincarnation, that presents a totally different BASE from which to live one's life. This is one of the difficulties which I have faced. For years now as my understandings evolved I came to realise many things, some of which I had a great deal of difficulty in believing. So I tested and probed and listened. And then I hit a huge hurdle of ethics and responsibility. Anyone who knows me will be aware that my trying to do "the right thing" has caused me problems in the past, though on occassions I have I think made a small positive difference to the lifes of some. But with my new "base" of understanding I hit this ethics and responsibility hurdle. Knowing that you can help others, humanity, fellow creatures, is one thing, working out how to help is another, and significantly working out how to ethically and responsibly help is perhaps the biggest challence that I have faced so far. Simple question for those here who understand what I am on about here. Is it common for people who go through such a phase of development to struggle for so long with ethics and responsibility and acceptance of reincarnation?
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