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Post by whistler on Jul 28, 2005 0:16:28 GMT
An Idle Question... How many Rules/ pages are there in the famous often quoted rule book?
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Jul 28, 2005 1:22:00 GMT
Are you referring to the Constitutions of GL and the by-laws of the Lodge?
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Post by whistler on Jul 28, 2005 3:02:37 GMT
as in Staffs and a dog-eared BoC should be enough for anyone.
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Post by taylorsman on Jul 28, 2005 4:26:20 GMT
Far too many! in my opinion anyway.
The factual answer in the B of C has nearly 300. It is seldom "dog eared" as most Brethern under UGLE are given one at their Initiation and then it lies gathering dust and unopened in their Regalia case (if it is lucky) or forgotten in a drawer or shelf.
I feel we are far too Micro- Managed for a modern society and whilst any Organisation requires Rules to be run in an orderly manner, we should be devolving more power back to the Individual Lodges and away from the Centre. I would like to see a Federation with each (English) Lodge affiliated to UGLE, sending elected and voting representatives to Grand Lodge Meetings, and signing up to a basic and brief set of Key Principles but otherwise free in matters of which Ritual to adopt and adapt, which Charities to support, etc, etc and of course I would abolish the present Provincial System which a Federal Governance and modern communications systems would render redundant anyway.
Now how many Rules and how strictly imposed are those in Co-Masonry and who promulgates and enforces them?
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Post by JulesTheBit on Jul 28, 2005 9:06:15 GMT
Far too many! in my opinion anyway. The factual answer in the B of C has nearly 300. It is seldom "dog eared" as most Brethern under UGLE are given one at their Initiation and then it lies gathering dust and unopened in their Regalia case (if it is lucky) or forgotten in a drawer or shelf. I feel we are far too Micro- Managed for a modern society and whilst any Organisation requires Rules to be run in an orderly manner, we should be devolving more power back to the Individual Lodges and away from the Centre. I would like to see a Federation with each (English) Lodge affiliated to UGLE, sending elected and voting representatives to Grand Lodge Meetings, and signing up to a basic and brief set of Key Principles but otherwise free in matters of which Ritual to adopt and adapt, which Charities to support, etc, etc and of course I would abolish the present Provincial System which a Federal Governance and modern communications systems would render redundant anyway. Now how many Rules and how strictly imposed are those in Co-Masonry and who promulgates and enforces them? All I actually find the UGLE book of constitutions quite useful, it prevents arguments by injecting clarity and giving a clearly defined process. It does not mandate any particular ritual or charities. The problems Taylorsman refers to are one of preferences of the leadership, and that applies whether they are appointed or elected. What future would we Emulation users have if you were in charge Steve ? I would like to see a flatter structure, more in line with what younger people experience in their day-to-day lives. I think the multi-layered management of English Freemasonry is very outdated. In freemasonry I quite like the concept of long lasting beneficial dictatorships, and I certainly prefer that system to being governed by a self-appointing committee. The democratic governance of the US GLs brings its own problems, and I don't like to see electioneering in Freemasonry. As for the co-masons, in my opinion the split of the Grand Lodge of Freemasonry for Men & Women from Droit Humane was caused by an argument over a fundamental principle that wasn't written down. the co-masons past is littered with splits and division. S&F, Julian
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ricardo
Member
Australia
Posts: 161
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Post by ricardo on Jul 28, 2005 9:20:15 GMT
How many layers of management ARE there in UGLE?
On ther face of it, there seems to be considerable decentralisation in UGLE. But this may be more apparent than real.
After all, over the past 150 or so years there have been many breakaways from UGLE, Ireland and Scotland, with formation of independent Grand Lodges in various parts of the former Empire. In the early days, such breakaways tended to occur because the periphery felt neglected by London, or because the local Ruler was responsible to London and not to the locals.
Richard
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Post by JulesTheBit on Jul 28, 2005 10:13:34 GMT
How many layers of management ARE there in UGLE? On ther face of it, there seems to be considerable decentralisation in UGLE. But this may be more apparent than real. After all, over the past 150 or so years there have been many breakaways from UGLE, Ireland and Scotland, with formation of independent Grand Lodges in various parts of the former Empire. In the early days, such breakaways tended to occur because the periphery felt neglected by London, or because the local Ruler was responsible to London and not to the locals. Richard Taking London as an example, in practice I think it works like this: WM VGO Group Chairman Met G Sec Dep Met GM Board of GP Grand Master S&F, Jules
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Post by generalpike on Jul 28, 2005 11:41:52 GMT
The factual answer in the B of C has nearly 300. The more factual answer is that it (1989 copy), if you mean the UGLE BoC, has approx 265 pages which break down to 82 pages of index, 37 pages illustrating various Craft Jewels, 135 pages of actual rules (279 rules, including such mundane issues as how to start and run a Lodge etc) and 12 pages detailing the Antient Charges according to UGLE. I am sure that your Grand Lodge must have a Book of Constitutions as well. How big is yours? ;D GP
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Post by taylorsman on Jul 28, 2005 16:17:51 GMT
I agree but you Bro Julian but I feel you have the list the wrong way round. I would perceive it as
TOP
GM (Pro GM) Board of GP Met GM Dep Met GM Met G Secy Group Chairman VGO WM
BOTTOM
In Disneyland you would be perfectly free to practice Emulation or any other Ritual, even one of your own Lodge's invention, if I was ELECTED as GM, certainly not part of the current self appointed Committee idea. I would also be governed by Terms of Reference which would protect the Autonomy of Individual Lodges in matters of Ritual etc. I am NOT the re-incarnation of the dreadful Frederick Augustus Duke of Sussex!!!!!! Disneyland? Yes as far as there being GM's and PGMs elected by the Ordinary Master Mason , it disnae happen! I don't like Dictatorships, even if they are thought by some to be "benevolent" also the Scots GL, an older one than UGLE , has an ELECTED GM, PGMs, etc for a fixed Term of Office, and I think the Irish GL, which is the oldest in the British Isles is the same, (if I am wrong on that point please correct me). I don't read of those two being in any difficulty as a result.
BTW Gen Pike, I think that "nearly 300" is close enough to 279 for most people, and there have been some added to cater for the London Metropolitan GL and the changes to RA in England since the 1989 Edition of the BOC or do you want a "Calibration Certificate" ?
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Post by JulesTheBit on Jul 28, 2005 18:49:44 GMT
TOPGM (Pro GM) Board of GP Met GM Dep Met GM Met G Secy Group Chairman VGO WM BOTTOM Whether you prefer it in ascending or descending sequence it's still a lot of layers. JS
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Post by taylorsman on Jul 28, 2005 18:52:48 GMT
I totally agree with you there Bro Julian!!!! Now which layers would you chop out? The new Metro GL could go as far as I and many London Masons are concerned, and as you well know I would abolish the Provinces. So which would you either abolish or amalgamate?
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Post by whistler on Jul 28, 2005 19:16:24 GMT
The factual answer in the B of C has nearly 300. I am sure that your Grand Lodge must have a Book of Constitutions as well. How big is yours? ;D GP Now that is interesting, we have one, it is only a small book If it has 30 pages I would be surprised, I haven't read it for years must have a look for it. I honestly can't remember a Bro ever referring to it, Yes newly initiated bro get given one. I guess my question was motivated by the number of posts on the forums, referring back to the B of C.
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Post by JulesTheBit on Jul 29, 2005 5:00:56 GMT
I totally agree with you there Bro Julian!!!! Now which layers would you chop out? The new Metro GL could go as far as I and many London Masons are concerned, and as you well know I would abolish the Provinces. So which would you either abolish or amalgamate? Steve I wouldn't cut layers, I'd redesign the whole structure and migrate from what we have today to a brand new one. I'd take established, proven ideas from commerce and industry and, cautiously, ideas which seemed to work well from other constitutions. I'd get professional corporate strategy consultants to design and implement it. As for London and provinces, a structure where the GM directly "manages" every MM in the constitution would be ridiculous. Some sort of structure is essential, and that would have to be either geographic or functional, or maybe a hybrid of the 2. The first step is to get acceptance of the need for change. Having read "Whither Directing our Course" it seems to me that the Pro-GM is well onside with that, but he's going to need some more support to make it happen. S&F, Julian
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Post by hollandr on Jul 29, 2005 5:28:32 GMT
I went to a lodge the other night and the GM and 2 deputy GMs arrived with Grand DC and trumpeter and demanded entry and indeed control of the lodge - so as to listen to the guest speaker.
And it struck me that it would have been much better if the GM had asked rather than demanded entrance.
I suspect that lodges when working are under the guidance of TGAOTU and therefore sovereign - assuming of course that the lodge is favoured by TGAOTU.
When a lodge is not working then it is more reasonably under control of the GL.
Cheers
Russell
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Post by taylorsman on Jul 29, 2005 7:32:15 GMT
Again Bro Julian I feel we are seeking to achieve similar aims but by rather different means. I am very sceptical regarding the likes of "Corporate Strategy Consultants" and other such external experts who are often grossly overpaid and leave chaos in their wake as I have seen in too many businesses and who's changes often are reversed after a few years at great loss and cost.
I do not see the Grand Master "managing" every MM in the Constitution, such an idea is as absurd as Tony Blair "managing" every British Citizen. The GM's role is to manage the INSTITUTION at a strategic level and to provide "Leadership". As I have said I envisage a "Federal" System with each Lodge having a lot more power devolved to it , and with an Elected GM with a fixed Term of Office as in the Scots system.
Yes Russell, I too grind my teeth at Installations when this happens and the PGM, his Deputy or Assistant DEMAND admission. Some even take the Chair from the outgoing WM and sign the Minutes after these have been read and voted on. Again, and I'm sure Bob or Ruff will correct me, this simply does not happen in Scots Freemasonry as there the PGM or equivalent REQUESTS admission, which of course is not refused, but is there as an Honoured Guest and Observer, the RWM still being in charge of the Lodge until his successor is Installed in the Chair.
If I lived 200 or so miles nearer Scotland or was in a position to visit there more often for example with my employment I would join a Scots Craft lodge and RA Chapter as from what I have been told and have read I would feel at home with their system of Governance. (not to mention other advantages such as Life Memberships, later Meetings etc).
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Jul 29, 2005 7:56:56 GMT
For the 50th anniversary of my lodge, The Grand Master came. He was obviously offered the chair, but he refused and sat near the WM.
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Post by taylorsman on Jul 29, 2005 9:54:19 GMT
And that is as it should be. Obviously courtesy requires that the Guest of Honour be offered this dignity but equally I would feel that courtesy requires him to politely decline.
Of course if he is not there for a Social Visit e.g. an Installation, Banner Dedication, Anniversary etc but for some more serious matter such as problems in that Lodge which are sufficiently grave to require the intervention of an Executive Officer then of course he would take the Chair and Gavel and be in charge of that Lodge to deliver whatever Judgement was required.
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Post by generalpike on Jul 29, 2005 10:43:33 GMT
BTW Gen Pike, I think that "nearly 300" is close enough to 279 for most people, and there have been some added to cater for the London Metropolitan GL and the changes to RA in England since the 1989 Edition of the BOC or do you want a "Calibration Certificate" Taylorsman If I were aiming for a certificate I would have mentioned part 2 of the BoC which contains the Rules for HRA. however, I was just trying to actually answer Whistler's earnest question without giving him a false impression nor my opinion. GP
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Post by generalpike on Jul 29, 2005 10:45:10 GMT
Now that is interesting, we have one, it is only a small book If it has 30 pages I would be surprised, I haven't read it for years must have a look for it. I honestly can't remember a Bro ever referring to it, Yes newly initiated bro get given one. I guess my question was motivated by the number of posts on the forums, referring back to the B of C. That sounds more like the By-Laws of your particular Lodge which we also have and are intended to supplement the overall BoC for UGLE. The way I think of the BoC is that it is general rules designed to ensure some kind of uniformity in an organisation with over 300,000 members. It's not the be all and end all but it addresses issues that have come up in the past and gives members some guidance on how to deal with them if they occur again. GP
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Jul 29, 2005 10:58:02 GMT
And that is as it should be. Obviously courtesy requires that the Guest of Honour be offerde this dignity but equally I would feel that courtesy requires him to politely decline. Of course if he is not there for a Social Visit e.g. an Installation, Banner Dedication, Anniversary etc but for some more serious matter such as problems in that Lodge which are sufficiently grave to require the intervention of an Executive Officer then of course he would take the Chair and Gavel and be in charge of that Lodge to deliver whatever Judgement was required. Not in Italy. In the lodge the throne is of the WM only. Important people sit at east.
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