Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 21, 2007 17:04:41 GMT
There is an agenda to "right" precieved "wrongs" by overcompensating, and in doing so, creating a new form of oppression. I can only speak on my own behalf (although I would be surprised if my fellow "conspirators" thought otherwise), I do have an "agenda" to right perceived wrongs (I guess I'm headed straight to hell). If possible, I hope to avoid overcompensating (as opposed to necessary Affirmative Action), so a "new form of oppression," is not a part of "my" agenda. ...take your efforts to Muslim countries, where there is genuine oppression of women. Not really practicable in my case. I give priority to more accessible issues, where I already have some involvement and where there is still work to be done. Anyway, I doubt any Muslim countries would be any more receptive to my efforts.
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bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
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Post by bod on Aug 21, 2007 17:12:00 GMT
So how about all those oppressed women living under islam in australia?
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 21, 2007 17:18:59 GMT
So how about all those oppressed women living under islam in australia? I'm more directly involved in Freemasonry.
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Post by brandt on Aug 21, 2007 18:21:37 GMT
If intelligent folks like us can hash it out over the internet it is a bit surprising that these things just seem impossible to work out in the "real" world. It is my belief that Freemasonry is losing some of the gems of the Masonic heritage by the blind following of RULES that restrict more than they help.
Brandt
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Post by tws on Aug 21, 2007 20:34:58 GMT
[quote author=tamrin board=new thread=1179359963 post=1187670787I have stated repeatedly that, on the principle of Affirmative Action, I would not support the forced integration of women only lodges. [/quote] I'm glad you brought my attention to this with a previous post. What you are saying here is that you do not support forced integration of female lodges, yet would force the integration on the male lodges, generously permitting a transition period. What about re-education camps? They are highly efficient at convincing people to do things contrary to thier natural inclinations. It would allow the heretic Mason a chance to get the out-moded "male bonding" sickness out of thier systems. And allow for a controlled environment in which to chart each individuals progress. Some of the more stubborn individuals could be "helped along" with the judicious application of certian medications. Hmmm...
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 21, 2007 21:09:32 GMT
What about re-education camps? They are highly efficient at convincing people to do things contrary to thier natural inclinations. It would allow the heretic Mason a chance to get the out-moded "male bonding" sickness out of thier systems. And allow for a controlled environment in which to chart each individuals progress. Some of the more stubborn individuals could be "helped along" with the judicious application of certian medications. Bro. TWS,Contrary to the implication of your sarcastic hyperbole, I have no interest for or against “male-bonding” as such. However, where it limits Freemasonry, I suggest it is best practiced elsewhere. I see Freemasonry as, “...embracing a wider range, and having a more noble object in view, namely, the cultivation and improvement of the human mind...” I suppose it already consists of re-education camps (lodges) which convince people to do things contrary to their natural inclinations, "... whereby Masonry becomes the Centre of Union and the means of conciliating true Friendship among persons that might otherwise have remained at a perpetual distance." This is the case with respect to politics, religion, race, etc., but in many cases, not gender (despite the exclusion of women now being contrary to the norms and expectations of the wider community).
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Post by brandt on Aug 21, 2007 21:26:10 GMT
Brother, As you have most likely surmised I am a strong proponent of the sovereign nature of lodges. I think that Grand Lodges should step back and play a light administrative role and act as a clearing house of information and possibly act as an arbitor in the cases of disputes between lodges. A lodge should be able to decide what path they wish to take. If a lodge decides it wants to initiate a women then that is their business as decided via the democratic process. If they decide not to initiate a women then that is also their business. Unless I am a member of the lodge in question it is not proper for me to influence directly their business. Of course if a lodge's course is too contrary to my own then I will simply not traffic with them as I don't traffic with several people that hold ideas that are too contrary to my own. This is Freemasonry and the individual is far more important than some legislation.
Brandt
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Post by tws on Aug 21, 2007 21:32:12 GMT
Bro. TWS,Contrary to the implication of your sarcastic hyperbole, I have no interest for or against “male-bonding” as such. However, where it limits Freemasonry, I suggest it is best practiced elsewhere. I see Freemasonry as, “...embracing a wider range, and having a more noble object in view, namely, the cultivation and improvement of the human mind...” I suppose it already consists of re-education camps (lodges) which convince people to do things contrary to their natural inclinations, "... whereby Masonry becomes the Centre of Union and the means of conciliating true Friendship among persons that might otherwise have remained at a perpetual distance." This is the case with respect to politics, religion, race, etc., but in many cases, not gender (despite the exclusion of women now being contrary to the norms and expectations of the wider community). I was using absudity to point out the absurd. My sarcastic hyperbole drew you out to further clarify your position.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 21, 2007 21:35:49 GMT
Bro. Brandt,
I would welcome that approach until the admission of women to mainstream lodges has been normalised, maybe over a generation. There remains the problem of lodges routinely blackballing people simply because of their gender, in cases where there is no convenient alternative for women. In such cases, I see a role for grand lodges in sponsoring lodges to ensure Freemasonry is, as far as practicable, reasonably accessible for all.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 21, 2007 21:38:38 GMT
I was using absudity to point out the absurd. My sarcastic hyperbole drew you out to further clarify your position. I'm glad your "cunning plan" was fruitful. I am always willing to clarify my position. You only need to ask.
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Post by tws on Aug 21, 2007 21:44:13 GMT
I was using absudity to point out the absurd. My sarcastic hyperbole drew you out to further clarify your position. I'm glad your "cunning plan" was fruitful. I am always willing to clarify my position. You only need to ask. It was more fun my way, though...
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Post by leonardo on Aug 21, 2007 21:45:56 GMT
I'm glad your "cunning plan" was fruitful. I am always willing to clarify my position. You only need to ask. It was more fun my way, though... You two are cracking me up
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Post by wayseer on Aug 21, 2007 22:56:46 GMT
Wow! If this thread is at all representative of the problems/issues with which FM must face then I see little chance of its survival in the long term.
Various statements are defensive which indicates to me that some are rather protective of certain views/beliefs - all of which convinces me that there is more here than what may be apparent.
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Aug 22, 2007 1:02:31 GMT
I've heard it seriously 'explained' that the reason to exclude women from attending sport venues in Iran is in part due to 'Male Bonding' and the detraction women present would otherwise bring to the arena... what a load of rubbish. But then, we need to put our own house in order too!
There were also similar concerns to given women the vote - and we saw where that got us!
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Post by tws on Aug 22, 2007 3:38:39 GMT
I've heard it seriously 'explained' that the reason to exclude women from attending sport venues in Iran is in part due to 'Male Bonding' and the detraction women present would otherwise bring to the arena... what a load of rubbish. But then, we need to put our own house in order too! Iran has a bunch of nutjobs in charge. No! Wait! Don't think it! Ick...Ack... Arggggggh! Pres. Hillary Clinton...Noooooooooooooo!!!!!!!
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Post by tws on Aug 22, 2007 3:57:45 GMT
Wow! If this thread is at all representative of the problems/issues with which FM must face then I see little chance of its survival in the long term. Never underestimate the Craft. After all we have been running the world from behind the scenes for centuries now... ;D Yes. There is a vast, left-wing-feminist conspiacy here that I intend to expose utilising my razor-sharp sarcastic hyperbole powers! I will leave no stone unturned, no rabbit-hole unexplored (along with my trusty sidekick Mouse-Girl, she just fits better in them rabbit holes), in my neverending quest to expose the sinister plans for world domination through subjugation of the male Freemason!
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Post by brandt on Aug 22, 2007 4:19:30 GMT
Wow! If this thread is at all representative of the problems/issues with which FM must face then I see little chance of its survival in the long term. Various statements are defensive which indicates to me that some are rather protective of certain views/beliefs - all of which convinces me that there is more here than what may be apparent. This thread actually gives me hope for the future of the Craft. We may actually make it through the changes that are coming in the near future. Brandt
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Post by tws on Aug 22, 2007 4:24:29 GMT
This thread actually gives me hope for the future of the Craft. We may actually make it through the changes that are coming in the near future. Brandt Never fear, Citizen! You have Hyperbole-Man and Mouse-Girl to protect Freemasonopolis!
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Aug 22, 2007 4:59:51 GMT
I suspect we are all seeing our respective involvement as a desire to protect Freemasonry's ongoing living presence.
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Post by leonardo on Aug 22, 2007 6:56:56 GMT
This thread actually gives me hope for the future of the Craft. We may actually make it through the changes that are coming in the near future. Brandt Never fear, Citizen! You have Hyperbole-Man and Mouse-Girl to protect Freemasonopolis! I see a movie on the horizon with the two "protagonists" in the lead roles
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