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Post by maximus on Mar 5, 2008 2:59:01 GMT
As to the question of whether a feral child would possess ethics, I would venture no. Ethics, as an abstact philosophical concept, is pedicated upon the individuals ability to grasp such concepts. One must have an education in order to conceptualise such ideas. Knowledge is progressive. If one lacks even the basics, then the higher concepts are nessessarily out of reach.
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Post by maat on Mar 5, 2008 3:59:27 GMT
As to the question of whether a feral child would possess ethics, I would venture no. Ethics, as an abstact philosophical concept, is pedicated upon the individuals ability to grasp such concepts. One must have an education in order to conceptualise such ideas. Knowledge is progressive. If one lacks even the basics, then the higher concepts are nessessarily out of reach. Hence the importance for assisting EA's and not leaving them to find their own way. Probably also the reason for a high dropout rate after one becomes Master of his Lodge, if he makes it that far. He has reached 'the top' - what else can there be. This is what I notice in the male craft lodges, in the female lodges if they stay to become Masters they are usually 'lifers'. Local observations only, might not apply elsewhere. Royal Arch has problems in particular because it deals with 'higher concepts' which many are ill prepared for - and because the preparatory (and explanatory) ceremony of The Veils is not performed any more in some Orders. Maat
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Post by maat on Mar 5, 2008 5:04:50 GMT
I understand, but in my mind i see a species of protohuman apes walking around with garbage in their head then... along comes a professor from a space ship to educate them... and thus Homo Sapiens was invented! Wrong .. Primitive man had the muscles 'they' had the brains - genetic manipulation = more intelligent workers. Canola on legs. Big mistake made when the hybrids were manipulated further so they could interbreed. Bred like weeds or rabbits. Smiting & smoting was to eradicate the excess? 40 years wandering about in the desert - stock breeding? Interesting to note that even in those days it was the male that had the brawn and the female that had the brains. I rest my case, your Honour. ;D
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 5, 2008 9:49:36 GMT
Please provide your source
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Post by wayseer on Mar 5, 2008 11:02:27 GMT
In the context of the Question - do FM worship Lucifer (devil) the thread needs to establish just what is 'ethics'. That should keep the party going well beyond midnight.
I would venture that whatever 'ethics' may be it is a learned process and one that is probably not 'natural' - that is, not innate. Therefore, to develop a sense of ethics is a learned procedure and if Ms were to worship Lucifer that too would, by definition, would be a learned procedure.
An interesting anthropological study, which I will try to access, found that cannibalism is a 'learned' procedure - men had to be taught and coerced to take part in the ritual. It was not practiced to 'obtain' food, in fact little or nothing was eaten of the poor unfortunate despite some of the commentaries, but to develop a sense of protection of the clan group.
So far in my Masonic journey I have not encountered any cannibalism tendencies.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 5, 2008 11:10:20 GMT
In the context of the Question - do FM worship Lucifer (devil) the thread needs to establish just what is 'ethics'.
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Post by maximus on Mar 5, 2008 11:58:03 GMT
What is morality, or ethics? It is a code of values to guide man's choices and actions—the choices and actions that determine the purpose and the course of his life. Ethics, as a science, deals with discovering and defining such a code.
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Post by penfold on Mar 5, 2008 22:23:21 GMT
the thread needs to establish just what is 'ethics' It-th the county that-th to the eath-t of London ;D
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Post by maximus on Mar 6, 2008 15:46:31 GMT
Please provide your source Sitchen, of course.
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Post by maat on Mar 7, 2008 0:11:46 GMT
and The Sumerian Clay Tablets and the Bible.
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:4
Maat
Don't blame me, I didn't write them.
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Post by maat on Mar 7, 2008 0:32:45 GMT
Genes - what genes? "Relativity theory showed that mass has nothing to do with substance, but is a form of energy. Energy is dynamic and therefore all substance is in a state of readiness for change. All life forms are therefore space/time constructs of energy patterns that intersect and form patterns which can be discerned by the human eye, ear, taste buds, or touch, and interpreted by the brain. DNA is, itself, an energy pattern, made up of sub-atomic particles which have aggregated to form the molecular structure which geneticists use as the basis for their work. A German scientist, Ernst Peter Fischer, concluded, from the discrepancy between traditional and new models of genetics - "There are, therefore, no genes! There are - at least in the cells of higher organisms - only pieces of genes, which the cell can use when it makes proteins. A gene is by no means a molecule that exists in a cell. Rather, a gene is a task that a cell has to accomplish. Genes don't exist; they are always becoming - shades of quantum physics." www.spiritualmusings.net/geneticEngineering.htm
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 7, 2008 22:27:07 GMT
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:4
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Post by Antonius on Mar 11, 2008 1:08:41 GMT
i think your missing a very important point here: feril children are severely damaged as a result of their isolation from their own species. it is not a natural state for a human being to be alone. people marooned on islands go insane if too much time goes by. people in maximum security prison are punished by being isolated from murderers and worse.
these feril, and otherwise neglected children have because of not being exposed to language suffered atrophy to the parts of the brain that govern language. in brainscans u can see those parts being all shrunken. ive seen a documentary about a girl who spent the first 15 years of her life chained up in a room and never being talked to. after being resqued the girl never did lern to speak in full articulated sentences, and she like most people in that situation died at a very young age. neglected children tend to be much smaller then other children of their own age. it is not just that we dont develop morals, we are hard pressed even to survive isolation from eachother.
so ure not just dealing with a lack of guidance, your dealing with severe trauma, wich makes the whole morals question somewhat moot.
also i would say that simply because i do not want to die, that alone is enuff to teach me it is not good to be killing others. humans posess empathy and the ability to extrapolate the internal to the external. so i do think there is verymuch an innate aspect to morality.
as for giants on the earth, this seems like a very litteral interpetation of the passage. but there is more to that story in extra biblical scripture, and i have to wonder if what we are dealing with is not an incomplete myth. considering the epic content of the story i would expect the ancients to use the most powerfull form of communication, particularly in terms of withstanding the passage of time: symbols and alegory.
have you considered the idea that these space invaders might have been vegetable? an extraterrestrial element introduced into our diet could explain how our dna can be altered without getting to sci-fi about it...
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Post by hollandr on Mar 11, 2008 4:11:18 GMT
>have you considered the idea that these space invaders might have been vegetable?
I understand that around 95% of economically important plants originated in Mesopotamia and a small area in South America.
In some cases the planets have genetics that are highly sophisticated with no primitive types known.
If those plants are space invaders and we eat them and turn them into clothes and furniture, are we safe?
Or are we becoming what we eat?
Cheers
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Post by maat on Mar 14, 2008 3:03:29 GMT
Bro Max - You have changed your language - now you have doubts. I am always open to new data. I still maintain that animals are incapable of comprehending ethics or morals. Man's consciousness shares with animals the first two stages of its development: sensations and perceptions; but it is the third state, conceptions, that makes him man. Sensations are integrated into perceptions automatically, by the brain of a man or of an animal. But to integrate perceptions into conceptions by a process of abstraction, is a feat that man alone has the power to perform—and he has to perform it by choice. The process of abstraction, and of concept-formation is a process of reason, of thought; it is not automatic nor instinctive nor involuntary nor infallible. Man has to initiate it, to sustain it and to bear responsibility for its results. The pre-conceptual level of consciousness is nonvolitional; volition begins with the first syllogism. Man has the choice to think or to evade—to maintain a state of full awareness or to drift from moment to moment, in a semi-conscious daze, at the mercy of whatever associational whims the unfocused mechanism of his consciousness produces. "For the New Intellectual," pg. 14. Just for Max Friendly dolphin saves whalesA PLAYFUL New Zealand dolphin used to swimming with humans has amazed conservationists by guiding two distressed whales back to sea. The dolphin led the two pygmy sperm whales 200 metres along the beach and through a channel to the open sea, Department of Conservation worker Malcolm Smith said today.
The two whales, a mother and her young calf, were found stranded on Mahia Beach, on North Island's east coast on Monday morning, Smith said.
``We worked for over an hour to try to get them back out to sea ... but they kept getting disorientated and stranding again'' after swimming into a large sandbar just off the shore, he said.
``They obviously couldn't find their way back past it to the sea,'' Smith said.
Four attempts by volunteers to refloat the pair failed and it was becoming highly likely they would have to be euthanised, he said.
Then the dolphin, named Moko by local residents, swam up.
``It was looking like it was going to be a bad outcome for the whales which was very disappointing and then Moko just came along and fixed it.''
Smith said it was quite possible Moko had heard the whales calling.
``The whales were ... quite distressed. They had arched their backs and were calling to one another, but as soon as the dolphin turned up they submerged into the water and followed her,'' he said.
``She obviously gave them enough guidance to leave the area because we haven't seen them since,'' Smith said.
``The things that happen in nature never cease to amaze me.''
Moko returned to the beach shortly afterward.
The playful dolphin swam straight back close to shore and joined in water games with local residents, he addedAnd in today's paper, it was reported that scientists are really scratching their heads over this one. Don't you love dolphins? I looked one square in the eye once. When out sailing I decided to try a Hawaiian 'trick' I had read about for calling dolphins, much to everyone else's mirth on board. It took about five minutes and then one swam up to the boat precisely where I was, rolled over on its side and looked me squarely in the eyes. It was WONDERFUL!!! While dolphins around boats are not uncommon, none had displayed that behaviour before. It was my turn to laugh when the rest of the crew decided to try their hand at it. Maat
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Post by lauderdale on Mar 14, 2008 10:39:46 GMT
Yes Bro Maat. It was quite humbling to look into the eyes of a non-human creature which is probably as intelligent as myself, possibly more so in some ways.
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Post by Antonius on Mar 14, 2008 17:14:58 GMT
well thats the thing, some people are theorising that the original fall of man is a story of an extraterrestrial element indroduced to our diet caused the sudden development of the caveman into the modern human. and it is one way some might interped the biblical fall of man, and perhaps the whole nephilim story.
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Post by leonardo on Mar 17, 2008 23:48:07 GMT
Who are these people? I remember back in the 1970s reading a book called Chariots of the Gods, by Erich Von Daniken, who advance the theory that we were visited by Aliens who slept with our women and created the human race we have today.
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Post by Antonius on Mar 18, 2008 3:13:49 GMT
well basicly they are the people who believe psychedelics are the forbidden fruit.
John Marco Allegro, leader of the dead sea scrolls translation team, Gordon R. Wasson also on the team, mike hoffman (son of Albert Hoffman) and Terrence McKenna would be first ones that come to mind.
but back to the idea itself, isnt it much more plausible that a mushrooms spore lands on earth, grows, is eaten and because of its strange effects starts to spark new thoughts in a species that eats them? and that the resulting change in behaviour and diet could alter DNA over time?
is this not much more plausible then some story about space aliens?
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Post by synchronicity on Mar 18, 2008 19:14:17 GMT
What an interesting thread this is! I have spotted a couple of themes within it that I would like to pick up again if I may, even though I am not a Mason. The first one is the claim from some quarters that Masons worship Lucifer or even Satan. Apparently this is a hoax that started a long time ago without any grounds whatsoever. Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#Freemasonry_and_LuciferianismI think that puts things into a solid historical perspective. The other theme I have found of interest in this thread is this: I would venture that Lucifer, or Satan, lies within each of us, representative of the dark side of our nature. We must confront and integrate this aspect of our nature in order to become whole. The only evil lies within ourselves. Indeed, is this concept of balance and wholeness not a central one? Is this not the meaning behind the symbolism of the chequered floor (for instance)? Perhaps it would be interesting to compare Maximus' comments with this intriguing quote: Eugene Fersen, The Science of Being, page 54. [Fersen's block capitals] This is, or course, an esoteric interpretation of Christ, viewed not as a historical individual or a divine being, but as a force or a state of consciousness. (Sorry if this offends Christian fundamentalists, but there you are.) Compare this also with the Gnositcs' interpretation of Genesis, where the "God" in the the Garden of Eden is not God at all but the Demiurge (deceiver), and the snake (Lucifer, Mind) is instrumental in bringing the human beings out of the illusion, where they can experience both good an evil and therefore also exercise their free will. I've probably got myself into very deep water here, but that's my two cents anyway.
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