|
Post by marcopolo on Jun 3, 2008 18:12:19 GMT
To put Pike and his "Morals and Dogma" in perspective for the non-Mason:
Masonry exists in nearly every nation on earth. Within Masonry there are MANY appendant bodies. One of these bodies is the Scottish Rite. Within the Scottish Rite, in the US, there are Northern and Southern Jurisdictions. Pike headed the Southern Jurisdiction at one point.
So, Pike was never any sort of "Global Master of Masons" or "Leader of Worldwide Masons" he was the leader of 1 jurisdiction in one of many appendant bodies. He wrote a book based on HIS views and experiences, and has been quoted out of context ever since.
The other big "out of context" quote was by Leo Taxil. Feel free to research it. It's where the whole "Baphomet" (Bearded Goat-head-god) thing came from. It was recounted by the author himself and has been disproved over and over and over and over again. (Though that is not enough to get it pulled from Chick tracts).
Again, I've written this out in great detail in a paper I wrote. If you are actually interested in the truth (as I assume any Christian would), I'd be happy to e-mail it to you. It's the least you could do before you continue to sin by spreading false witness.
|
|
|
Post by marcopolo on Jun 3, 2008 18:13:32 GMT
I agree, anyone making empty accusations cannot be taken seriously. Your arguments against Masonry are NOT backed by facts, my brother. You are taking misinformation and spreading it. It is most excellent to see you post, MarcoPolo ;D Thanks! ;D
|
|
|
Post by elshamah on Jun 3, 2008 19:32:58 GMT
I agree, anyone making empty accusations cannot be taken seriously. Your arguments against Masonry are NOT backed by facts, my brother. You are taking misinformation and spreading it. prove it.
|
|
|
Post by elshamah on Jun 3, 2008 19:33:56 GMT
yes, it is what i wanted to say. Okay ... do you physically SEE God? I do not mean how He manifests Himself in His Creation, but He Himself. Do you physically SEE Him? No.
|
|
|
Post by elshamah on Jun 3, 2008 19:36:49 GMT
Sad to say there is not enough room here for me to document the number of Christians that I could give similar reports of. The truth is there is good and bad in Freemasonry as there is good and ban in the Church. you have asked me about personal experience with freemasons, and i replied. Yes, of course, there are christians, that do not give a good testimony of their faith.
|
|
|
Post by elshamah on Jun 3, 2008 19:40:55 GMT
www.icwseminary.org/masonryreligion.htmThe site you quoted relies on quotes from Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike Lets find out a little about Albert: After traveling as far west as Santa Fe, Pike settled in Arkansas, where he worked as editor of a newspaper before being admitted to the bar. In Arkansas, he met Mary Ann Hamilton, and married her on November 28, 1834. To this union were born 11 children. He was 41 years old when he applied for admission in the Western Star Lodge No. 2 in Little Rock, Ark., in 1850. Active in the Grand Lodge of Arkansas, Pike took the 10 degrees of the York Rite from 1850 to 1853. He received the 29 degrees of the Scottish Rite in March 1853 from Albert Gallatin Mackey in Charleston, S.C. The Scottish Rite had been introduced in the United States in 1783. Charleston was the location of the first Supreme Council, which governed the Scottish Rite in the United States, until a Northern Supreme Council was established in New York City in 1813. The boundary between the Southern and Northern Jurisdictions, still recognized today, was firmly established in 1828. Morals and Dogma was traditionally given to the candidate upon his receipt of the 14th degree of the Scottish Rite. This practice was stopped in 1974. Morals and Dogma has not been given to candidates since 1974 Pike was a prolific writer and was learning and developing as he wrote. What all the anti Masonic web sites omit from their descriptions is the preface that Pike wrote to Morals and Dogma "Everyone is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound."So it was Pikes own esoteric wanderings and possibilities that were contained therein. He uses the word Religion far too often for my liking but it was 150 years ago and the world was a very different place then. What I want to do here is show how selective quotes can bring about whatever the writer wishes to portray. I would suggest that you read the book yourself , you will find it to be a wandering through the possibilities of the human mind and soul. Morals and Dogma on Religion:- p.10 : The Bible is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Christian Lodge, only because it is the sacred book of the Christian religion. The Hebrew Pentateuch in a Hebrew Lodge, and the Koran in a Mohammedan one, belong on the Altar; and one of these, and the Square and Compass, properly understood, are the Great Lights by which a Mason must walk and work. ,,,,,,,,,, The obligation of the candidate is always to be taken on the sacred book or books of his religion, that he may deem it more solemn and binding; and therefore it was that you were asked of what religion you were. We have no other concern with your religious creed. p.16 thought to the thirsty lips of men; to give to all the true ideas of Deity; to harmonize conscience and science, are the province of Philosophy. Morality is Faith in full bloom. Contemplation should lead to action, and the absolute be practical; the ideal be made air and food and drink to the human mind. Wisdom is a sacred communion. It is only on that condition that it ceases to be a sterile love of Science, and becomes the one and supreme method by which to unite Humanity and arouse it to concerted action. Then Philosophy becomes Religion. p. 18 To maintain the established government, laws, and religion, was the obligation of the Initiate everywhere; and everywhere they were the heritage of the priests, who were nowhere willing to make the common people coproprietors with themselves of philosophical truth. p.22 Except to those who first receive it, every religion and the truth of all inspired writings depend on human testimony and internal evidences, to be judged of by Reason and the wise analogies of Faith. Each man must necessarily have the right to judge of their truth for himself; because no one man can have any higher or better right to judge than another of equal information and intelligence. I will conclude with Pikes words on p. 97 Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it. The Brahmin, the Jew, the Mahometan, the Catholic, the Protestant, each professing his peculiar religion, sanctioned by the laws, by time, and by climate, must needs retain it, and cannot have two religions; for the social and sacred laws adapted to the usages, manners, and prejudices of particular countries, are the work of men. there is a vast number of literature out there to contradict the assertion, freemasonry is not a religion. www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/pagen_alter_one.htm
|
|
|
Post by maximus on Jun 3, 2008 20:32:50 GMT
I agree, anyone making empty accusations cannot be taken seriously. Your arguments against Masonry are NOT backed by facts, my brother. You are taking misinformation and spreading it. prove it. As the accusing party, it is up to you to "prove it." So far, not very successfully. All you have done is copy and paste adresses to anti-masonic websites. Do you have a mind of your own with which to reason? Can you present a cogent arguement based on reason and logic, or must you rely on the props of the words of others? If not, then you are simply like a parrot, regurgitating the words impressed on your brain without understanding. Present an arguement based on reason, if you can.
|
|
|
Post by corab on Jun 3, 2008 20:49:12 GMT
Okay ... do you physically SEE God? I do not mean how He manifests Himself in His Creation, but He Himself. Do you physically SEE Him? No. Okay, let's put that back into its original context:- When you do not see something, does that mean you believe it is not there? yes, it is what i wanted to say. Can you see what you've done here? You have stated that (a) you do not believe something exists unless you can see it, AND (b) that you do not see God. Yet you believe in Him. That proves that some things exist even though you cannot see them, doesn't it?
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Jun 3, 2008 21:51:03 GMT
elshamah
You have to do your research a bit better the site you quoted also has
* The Militant Gay Movement
* King Arthur is the Anti-Christ The Once and Future King 11:11
* Anglicans pull welcome mat from under bewildered Freemasons
* Operation 911- No Suicide Pilots
* The Nazi-ization of America
* DEFENDERS OF THE CONSTITUTION NOW CONSIDERED TO BE TERRORISTS
* Destruction of the Trade Centers: Occult Symbolism Indicates Enemies Within Our Own Government
to name but a few, and yes you can buy all sorts on this site to stop the nasty bogey men getting at you. The more bogey men the more they can sell.
Dont just follow the trail, stop listen and think.
There is a vast amount that says it is not as I showed you even Pike, the Guy they all like to quote says
p. 97 Masonry is not a religion.
I will concede that there are some Freemasons who would agree Freemasonry is a religion of sorts, but the vast Majority do not.
|
|
|
Post by droche on Jun 3, 2008 22:09:40 GMT
I agree, anyone making empty accusations cannot be taken seriously. Your arguments against Masonry are NOT backed by facts, my brother. You are taking misinformation and spreading it. prove it. I and others have asked you to state specific aspects of Freemasonry that will substantiate your claims about the Fraternity, and so far, you have not done so, yet, you demand proof of the statements made to you. I think what this whole thing boils down to is that someone who happened to be a member of the Masons defrauded you, and you, being angry about that, are taking it out on Freemasonry as a whole. The faulty logic there is obvious. This is nothing new with virulent anti-masons.
|
|
|
Post by maximus on Jun 3, 2008 23:22:01 GMT
I think what this whole thing boils down to is that someone who happened to be a member of the Masons defrauded you, and you, being angry about that, are taking it out on Freemasonry as a whole. That's what it appears to be, by his own statement. What happened to the Christian concept of forgiveness? Engaging on a crusade to persecute a group that you hate flys in the face of the teachings of Yeshua. There is a dissconnect between professed belief and actions here.
|
|
imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
|
Post by imakegarb on Jun 4, 2008 0:03:52 GMT
Again, I've written this out in great detail in a paper I wrote. y'know, we've got a very cool section here where you could post your paper Well, we do
|
|
|
Post by maat on Jun 4, 2008 0:14:30 GMT
Well I for one would sincerely like to thank elshamah for sharing his opinions of Freemasonry with us on the forum.
I have seen so much light and love stream forth from my fellow members on this thread. We have truly shared our innermost experiences with each other in the most heartfelt manner. How often does such an wonderful opportunity present itself like this?
Elshamah, you are not evil, like the rest of us you are just imperfect. You can't be Satanical because you have enabled us to see the Light more clearly in each other. You have bought us a great gift, and I would like to thank you for it. We also have a gift for you but you don't have to accept it. That is up to you.
Love Maat
|
|
|
Post by maximus on Jun 4, 2008 1:34:59 GMT
Again, I've written this out in great detail in a paper I wrote. y'know, we've got a very cool section here where you could post your paper Well, we do I'd like to read it.
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Jun 4, 2008 2:38:23 GMT
>Elshamah, you are not evil, like the rest of us you are just imperfect.
Maat you have touched upon something I was contemplating:
How can anyone escape from the belief that they are evil?
The difficulty is that believing that you are evil attracts negative experiences that confirm the belief. (Like attracts like)
I suspect that the best way out is to experience intense unselfish love.
Unselfish love is so clearly good that the experiencer cannot (?) believe that they themselves are evil while experiencing that love
|
|
|
Post by marcopolo on Jun 4, 2008 4:21:04 GMT
Again, I've written this out in great detail in a paper I wrote. y'know, we've got a very cool section here where you could post your paper Well, we do To quote the great Johnny Carson, "Well.. I, uh, did not know that." I will post it with this caveat. I did not author all of it. Some of it is cut and pasted from google searches I did during my original quest to see if Masonry was for me and to answer many of the "charges" I had heard leveled against the craft before I joined. Thanks for pointing me in that direction! to elshamah, Again, my brother, you have continued to quote what some evangelicals have said, but have never even given me the respect of a reply that I feel was very straight forward, honest, and a from the heart. I feel it is a horrible witness to continue to bear false witness about something you know absolutely nothing about and claim it to be factual. I, on the other hand, AM speaking factually and have experienced both freemasonry AND evangelical Christianity. Common sense would tell you that I would be in a better position to judge the claim of "satanic religion" than you, no? Again, please stop bearing false witness. I pray that the HS convicts you on what you are doing.
|
|
|
Post by alchymicalmason on Jun 4, 2008 4:34:12 GMT
Elshamah said: <<<"it is in my opinion a dangerous path. I believe in the bible as the true word of God, as it is written :
3:16 Every scripture23 is inspired by God24 and useful for teaching, for reproof,25 for correction, and for training in righteousness, 3:17 that the person dedicated to God26 may be capable27 and equipped for every good work.
So , to learn there, and follow the instructions in the bible, is a secure path, in my opinion, and i have choosen to go for this way. And it makes more than 24 years now. ">>>
Wouldn't be tragic if we ALL were only allowed to read ONE sacred book?
If that is what makes you feel safe and secure ...........well.........good for you!
I was a fundie Christian for over 25 years. I left the church because of the many hateful, homophobic, misogynist, child abusing, racist hypocrites that have taken over many of the churches of today. I mean no offense to the Christians on this site. I am confident that a true Christian would understand where I am coming from! I still have a strong belief in G-d but I do not see G-d as a small minded murderer who created people in order to punish them. My G-d is MUCH GREATER than that!
I became a Freemason, after many years of spiritual study and because I felt that the symbols and allegory would help me to see greater truths. I felt that it would help me to look within and face my fears and my faults so that I may grow and become a better person. It has done that and more. Freemasonry has helped me to grow into a better parent, community leader, friend, etc. It has even strengthened my spiritual faith and love for my fellow humans and other creatures.
I'm not saying this to convince you or anyone else that Freemasonry is right for you. I don't care! I also don't care what you or anyone else thinks of me or my Masonic affiliations. I lived in YOUR world for 25 years and I will never go back. Ever since I freed my mind from my prison-religion I have been in a state of pure bliss! I have read many sacred and holy books and many so-called unholy books as well! I will read anything I can get my hands on because I have 25 years of ignorance to make up for! 25 years of believing that I was unworthy because of my humanity and my womanhood. 25 years of submitting to tyrannical men including an abusive father and an abusive "Christian" husband. Now I am free to read and think and speak and love and laugh!
Like I said, my friend, I don't care what you think of Freemasonry or me, for that matter! I wish for you nothing but the best that life has to offer, including the freedom to think for yourself.
Peace
|
|
|
Post by alchymicalmason on Jun 4, 2008 4:38:24 GMT
I agree, anyone making empty accusations cannot be taken seriously. Your arguments against Masonry are NOT backed by facts, my brother. You are taking misinformation and spreading it. prove it. Actually, you are the person with the argument so the burden of proof is on you!
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Jun 4, 2008 8:43:11 GMT
Can I just drop in a reminder here.
elshamah came here and said , 'i am a born again, evangelical christian'.
There is an undeniable compulsion to spread the word of God, if you believe that word to be disturbed by others writings, concepts or actions you must confront those actions etc.
It is done out of love for your fellow man. Your belief is that of throwing a lifebelt to a drowning man.
Now you may disagree with the fact that your motives in Freemasonry are being questioned, but an innocent man, just has to tell the truth. That is all that is required.
Having been kicked off more Christian forums than you can shake a stick at, it takes a lot to come on a forum and say things you know will not be popular.
However from the weight of the answers above i hope elshamah / Angelo, will take some time to think about what he has asked and the answers that have been given.
|
|
|
Post by elshamah on Jun 4, 2008 11:08:50 GMT
Then you are NOT a believer in what the Holy Bible says. Proof positive that you are evil as you say. As an evil person, that is all that you would see in others. So your claim that others are evil too would be a natural conclusion from such a view. You "see" what you are. As do others. it seems you do not know the bible. Romans chapter 3, says: “There is no one righteous, not even one,
3:11 there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. 3:12 All have turned away, together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness, not even one.”15 3:13 “Their throats are open graves,16 they deceive with their tongues, the poison of asps is under their lips.”17 3:14 “Their mouths are18 full of cursing and bitterness.”19 3:15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood, 3:16 ruin and misery are in their paths, 3:17 and the way of peace they have not known.”20 3:18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”21 3:21 But now26 apart from the law the righteousness of God (which is attested by the law and the prophets)27 has been disclosed – 3:22 namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ28 for all who believe. For there is no distinction, 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 3:24 But they are justified29 freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 3:25
So the only difference between a born again christian and a non christian is, that the born again christian has found grace, and forgiveness, while the non chrisitan has not. i don't know what you are talking about. i am a very happy person. So, you are saying that it is okay for you to speak evil of others you don't know based on a very poor business decision on your part? This was a sin on your part. Your sin was further compounded by sinful acts. Further are you implying that your personal pain has caused you to strike out at innocents wrongfully. These are Satan inspired acts. Have you no shame!? Your ethics are becoming ever clearer. You do not practice that which is written in Holy Scripture. By your actions you are saying that "Satan" is alive and well and living in your heart. I think you do not know what you are talking about. My mistake was to trust in someone, that did not deserve my trust, and to work for me. Unfortunately, it was a freemason, which even tried to convince me, to be a freemason as well. I have brought up this example because someone asked me about personal experiences with freemasons.
|
|