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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 4, 2008 19:35:56 GMT
Genesis 2 But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib
So there you have it , women are spare ribs. But don't tell my wife I wrote this.
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Post by maximus on Jun 4, 2008 19:42:59 GMT
Genesis 2 But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib So there you have it , women are spare ribs. But don't tell my wife I wrote this. That's why they are yummy with BBQ sauce (don't ask). We'll never tell ,Bill.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 4, 2008 20:52:04 GMT
By whose definition? And by what motives? My base is the Bible. And my motivation is to serve Christ, and to follow his command : go to all the world (WWW) and preach the gospel. The standard of God's word, the bible
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Post by sid on Jun 4, 2008 20:54:13 GMT
Greetings, absolutely not. as said, i have nothing against freemasons. I have however, a very bad opinion about freemasonry. May I suggest that you watch & listen to the speech by Steve Jobs at Stanford University (2005), regarding dogma? itunes.stanford.edu/index.html
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Post by elshamah on Jun 4, 2008 20:55:31 GMT
Angelo, I think you may have missed this in the recent flurry of activity on this thread. I am quite interested in your thoughts on this:- Okay ... do you physically SEE God? I do not mean how He manifests Himself in His Creation, but He Himself. Do you physically SEE Him? Okay, let's put that back into its original context:- Can you see what you've done here? You have stated that (a) you do not believe something exists unless you can see it, AND (b) that you do not see God. Yet you believe in Him. That proves that some things exist even though you cannot see them, doesn't it? i think i gave you a answer, which was not what i wanted to say. of course i believe in things, i do not see.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 4, 2008 21:02:25 GMT
well, one point i have shown already : freemasons claim that the objective of freemasonry it to better men. I have argumented that this is a heresy against God, since only God has the power to transform the nature of men, through his power and holy spirit. I do in fact use arguments of webpages and of others. What is interesting so far, is that nobody has come up to discredit with hard facts what these anti masonic pages in fact say . That makes me only belief these say the truth. Don't they ? So, are you saying men i.e. people, are not able to improve others? That very much perplexes me for it happens every day. Parents improve their children as do teachers. Leaders in business, the military and elswhere, if they are good leaders, improve the people in their stewardship. In the US the purpose of the Boy Scouts is to improve the character of it's members and I am certain that there are countless other organizations throughout the world with the same purpose. Are you against those as well? Do you feel that they are evil or satanic? I agree with you in a broad sense that only God can transform the nature of people, but I believe that this can be done through other people. I respectfully feel that your interpretation of that is not accurate. To god , there exists one standard of excellence : his law. There are two possibilites : or men is able to fullfill God's standard, one hundred percent, or he is not. If he is not, he is guilty , and God's justice demands for punishment. What is the result of sin ? Death. Only God is able to forgive our sins, and give us a new nature, through his holy spirit, which is able to do God's will. There does not exist any substitute : no Religion, no education, anything. i think we should just choose one topic, to be not too generic. Why do we not hold on the quest : is freemasonry a religion, or not. So how would you answer : was Albert Pike right, or wrong , when he said, freemasonry IS a religion ?
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 4, 2008 21:03:51 GMT
elshamah,
Please respond to my posts. I am concerned that you are not addressing the issue of bearing false witness.
As to Pike being right or wrong, or addressing what Pike said, I've already answered this at least once.
Why do you keep asking for answers that were already given, and why do you continue to ignore the false witness issue?
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Post by elshamah on Jun 4, 2008 21:06:27 GMT
good point. might we should pick up one matter, and discuss it. why not the one, that has been brought to discussion alread ? is freemasonry a religion, or not ? www.biblebb.com/files/MASONS.HTMSo. is it relevant or not, what Albert Pike said ? absolutely not. as said, i have nothing against freemasons. I have however, a very bad opinion about freemasonry. No, no... as I posted above, you came here and made certain statements; it is incumbent on you to support them. You tell us if Freemasonry is a religion. If so, why? If not, why? What exactly did Albert Pike write that supports your statements? I can read that web page all day and I still won't know what exactly what is written there that makes you feel the way you do. it seems you are blind thow ? "Morals And Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry", By Albert Pike, Grand Commander (Masonry)..."The custodian and depository (since Enoch) of the great philosophical and religious truths, unknown to the world at large, and handed down from age to age by an unbroken current of tradition, embodied in symbols, emblems and allegories". (page 210) "It (Masonry) is the universal, eternal, immutable religion, such as God planted it in the heart of universal humanity. No creed has ever been long-lived that was not built on this foundation. It is the base and they are the superstructure" (page 219) "Every Masonic Temple is a Temple of Religion, and its teachings are instructions in religion" (page 213)
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 4, 2008 21:12:37 GMT
elshamah,
I'll your question AGAIN. Please pay attention.
Pike wrote what PIKE believed. If he saw Masonry as HIS source of religious instruction, he would be in the vast minority. I'm sure some people see their connection to a "higher power" through many things including painting, gardening, etc. That does not mean that those activities are religions.
Again, I could find examples within Evangelical Christianity that have taught that everything from "mixed swimming" to owning a television to bowling to attending pro sporting events was a sin. It is well documented that preachers believed and wrote that blacks were lesser men and some even taught and preached that hey had no souls.
Just because an individual STATES something doesn't mean it is factual for all in that group.
Masonry is NOT a religion and has never claimed to be, despite what an individual may have written over 100 years ago.
Again, some of the very quotes on the page you listed ARE NOT TRUE. They are hoaxes and have been disproved YEARS AGO.
At this point it seems you DO NOT want an honest answer. I don't know what else to say.
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Post by penfold on Jun 4, 2008 21:32:47 GMT
Is freemasonry a religion? No And as for Albert Pike, he simply wrote his opinion, no man, or woman, ever has nor ever will speak for freemasonry as a whole
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 4, 2008 21:36:13 GMT
You know, we may have taken something for granted here.
elshamah, you do realize that Morals and Dogma by Pike isn't any sort of official handbook for Masonry, right? It's not "our" official book. It's a collection of ideas from a single member over 100 years ago. If you thought it was some sort of "handbook" that we all subscribed to, then I could understand your confusion.
Just to be clear, you do understand that Pike's book isn't any sort of official handbook, right?
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Post by droche on Jun 4, 2008 21:54:21 GMT
i think we should just choose one topic, to be not too generic. Why do we not hold on the quest : is freemasonry a religion, or not. So how would you answer : was Albert Pike right, or wrong , when he said, freemasonry IS a religion ? OK, you have asked me a specific question. I will answer it. To put things in perspective, you must remember that many non-Masons and some Masons think that Albert Pike was the final authority on matters Masonic. Such is not the case. Pike even said that he was not the final authority, and that Masons were free to disagree with him, and that if his views did not find general acceptance, that was fine with him. The other thing is that Pike is not around to defend himself; he was writing in a different time and in different contexts than what is discussed today, thus, I think it a bit unfair to cite him as a final authority. He was and is well respected, yes, but a final authority, no. As was written elsewhere on this thread, he was a prolific writer and was in many cases expressing his thoughts and he might not have even believed what he was saying- he could have been merely thinking out loud. If he did in fact say and feel that Freemasonry was a religion, I do not agree. Freemasonry differs from a religion in that it has no religious doctrine, dogma, creed or liturgy. It does not require it's members to believe in any of the above, nor does it require anything commonly found in religions such as dietary laws, fasting, the celebration of holidays, certain dress requirements, scriptures or specific prohibitions on political or moral philosophies (e.g. abortion). As a matter of fact, discussions of such matters in a Masonic Lodge are strictly forbidden. Freemasonry uses lessons taught in religions only as an example of how we should act, but it takes these lessons from different religions and it recognizes no one religion over another, and does not say that it's members must believe in the sources from which these lessons are taken. So no, I do not believe that Freemasonry is a religion. The aspects of it that make it non-religious far outweigh those aspects that make it appear to some to be a religion.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 4, 2008 21:55:38 GMT
elshamah
I do not agree that Pike saw Freemasonry as a Religion, as I have already pointed out he clearly stated it was not a Religion, but you have to understand the time at which he wrote. Civil War , Slavery, Rulling Classes, the powerful were very powerful. The Church would have been at the heart of most of the creation of Freemasonry.
In the UK the UGLE Grand Chaplain was either the 'Arch Bishop of Canterbury' or one of the Leading Bishops of the day until the 1960's.
It would have been odd if he did not align his writings to his Faith.
OK
Full paragraph: That of bronze, which survived the flood, is supposed to symbolize the mysteries, of which Masonry is the legitimate successor - from the earliest times the custodian and depository of the great philosophical and religious truths, unknown to the world at large, and handed down from age to age by an unbroken current of tradition, embodied in symbols, emblems, and allegories.
Masonry labors to improve the social order by enlightening men's minds, warming their hearts with the love of the good, inspiring them with the great principle of human fraternity, and requiring of its disciples that their language and actions shall conform to that principle, that they shall enlighten each other, control their passions, abhor vice, and pity the vicious man as one afflicted with a deplorable malady. It is the universal, eternal, immutable religion, such as God planted it in the heart of universal humanity. No creed has ever been long-lived that was not built on this foundation. It is the base, and they are the superstructure. "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." "Is not this the fast that I have chosen ? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke ?" The ministers of this religion are all Masons who comprehend it and are devoted to it; its sacrifices to God are good works, the sacrifices of the base and disorderly passions, the offering up of self-interest on the altar of humanity, and perpetual efforts to attain to all the moral perfection of which man is capable.
Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion. For here are inculcated disinterestedness, affection, toleration, devotedness, patriotism, truth, a generous sympathy with those who suffer and mourn, pity for the fallen, mercy for the erring, relief for those in want, Faith, Hope, and Charity. Here we meet as brethren, to learn to know and love each other. Here we greet each other gladly, are lenient to each other's faults, regardful of each other's feelings, ready to relieve each other's wants. This is the true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures. If unworthy passions, or selfish, bitter, or revengeful feelings, contempt, dislike, hatred, enter here, they are intruders and n t welcome, strangers uninvited, and not guests. Certainly there are many evils and bad passions, and much hate and contempt and unkindness everywhere in the world. We cannot refuse to see the evil -that is in life. But all is not evil. We still see God in the world. There is good amidst the evil. The hand of mercy leads wealth to the hovels of poverty and sorrow. Truth and simplicity live amid many wiles and sophistries. There are good hearts underneath gay robes, and under tattered garments also.
Here I agree Pike has gone off into an intricate winding of his mind which I say he has used the wrong words. What he is saying is there are certain universal truths that form the basis of all Religions. But at the time of writing he would not have thought it strange or odd or that anyone would object in the future.
But elshamah, is it not an odd Satanic Religion that wants to keep the Faith in the Bible, care for the sick and elderly, keep love for your fellow creatures.
He touches here on the word religion again but when you read all the passages you undertsand what he was trying to convey, that a Masonic Lodge just teaches the same lessons you will find in the Bible.
my pdf copy p.199 No one Mason has the right to measure for another, within the walls of a Masonic Temple, the degree of veneration which he shall feel for any Reformer, or the Founder of any Religion. We teach a belief in no particular creed, as we teach unbelief in none.
my pdf copy p.539
To us, its three sides represent the three principal attributes of the Deity, which created, and now, as ever, support, uphold, and guide the Universe in its eternal movement; the three supports of the Masonic Temple, itself an emblem of the Universe:--Wisdom, or the Infinite Divine Intelligence; Strength, or Power, the Infinite Divine Will; and Beauty, or the Infinite Divine Harmony, the Eternal Law, by virtue of which the infinite myriads of suns and worlds flash ever onward in their ceaseless revolutions, without clash or conflict, in the Infinite of space, and change and movement are the law of all created existences.
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Post by corab on Jun 4, 2008 22:05:42 GMT
Hi Angelo, i think i gave you a answer, which was not what i wanted to say. of course i believe in things, i do not see. Thanks -- and right glad am I to see that. Because you know what? There are many things we do not see -- and ofthen when we say we cannot see something, the unseen truth of it is that we will not see something. We have a choice in these matters. We can choose to see the picture we have painted for ourselves, or we can choose to open our eyes and see the truth. I think Paul would agree. Thankfully, we don't have to wait until God converts us -- we know it exists; we can willingly join it. Problem is the truth can be very painful, and it is much easier to look at an imaginary picture and tell ourselves it is real, than to turn around and look into the mirror of truth. There are people here who want to help you. Surely you understand that desire -- after all you are here to testify your faith and show us what you see as the error of our ways, and I don't mean that sarcastically. Whilst I do not believe anyone here would question your right to experience your faith the way you choose to, the same does not necessarily hold for the way in which you communicate your beliefs. Your testifying could be much more effective if you chose a less confrontational manner.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 4, 2008 22:09:20 GMT
How about we try to understand more of the thinking of a Christian Fundamentalist. A fundamentalist is someone who takes the Bible OLD (KJV) as God's Word and adds nothing to and takes nothing away. If it's in there, it is the Gospel as set down BY God, Christ, The Holy Spirit. you forgot, the new testament, as well. where does the inconsistency rely on this versicle ? You forget, that this command was written for the jewish people, 4000 Years ago. the archaeological discoveries have given right to the bible, time after time. Everything, there written, is historical fact, and has happened. There is nobody, that prooved, that the bible lied at some point. this is complete missinformation. It was at the concil of nicea. constantine had nothing to do with it. of course not, it didn't exist 2000 years ago. so what do you want to say with that ?
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Post by elshamah on Jun 4, 2008 22:13:32 GMT
elhamah, You STILL haven't responded to any of my posts. It seems you are looking for an argument rather than any type of information. I can't make it any more simple: Q: Can a man be a born again Christian and a Mason? A: YES! I AM! Q: Is Masonry a religion? A: NO! Q: How do you know? A: Because I'm both an Evangelical Christian (even Pentecostal) AND a Master Mason. You can chose to believe either those who are trying to sell you books or you can believe me, someone who has absolutely nothing to gain from you either way. To continue to not take to heart what I have said is doing 1 of 2 things: 1. Accusing me of being a liar. 2. Doubting my salvation. Which is it? I stand with clear conscious before God. I have made every effort as a brother to whisper good counsel in your ear. If you continue to spread false witness after I have given you the truth, you stand convicted before God. I just posted a paper last night in the "Papers and Articles" section that you may want to read. It was my heartfelt response to a friend who was concerned about my salvation after I became a Mason. I think if you are earnestly looking for answers, it will have all the answers you need on where all this misinformation came from. have you given a look at the homepage, i linked to ? i very much councel you to do so, and based on the information you will find there, we will discuss. www.biblebb.com/files/J94-52-1.HTM
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Post by elshamah on Jun 4, 2008 22:20:18 GMT
i think we should just choose one topic, to be not too generic. Why do we not hold on the quest : is freemasonry a religion, or not. So how would you answer : was Albert Pike right, or wrong , when he said, freemasonry IS a religion ? OK, you have asked me a specific question. I will answer it. To put things in perspective, you must remember that many non-Masons and some Masons think that Albert Pike was the final authority on matters Masonic. Such is not the case. Pike even said that he was not the final authority, and that Masons were free to disagree with him, and that if his views did not find general acceptance, that was fine with him. The other thing is that Pike is not around to defend himself; he was writing in a different time and in different contexts than what is discussed today, thus, I think it a bit unfair to cite him as a final authority. He was and is well respected, yes, but a final authority, no. As was written elsewhere on this thread, he was a prolific writer and was in many cases expressing his thoughts and he might not have even believed what he was saying- he could have been merely thinking out loud. If he did in fact say and feel that Freemasonry was a religion, I do not agree. Freemasonry differs from a religion in that it has no religious doctrine, dogma, creed or liturgy. It does not require it's members to believe in any of the above, nor does it require anything commonly found in religions such as dietary laws, fasting, the celebration of holidays, certain dress requirements, scriptures or specific prohibitions on political or moral philosophies (e.g. abortion). As a matter of fact, discussions of such matters in a Masonic Lodge are strictly forbidden. Freemasonry uses lessons taught in religions only as an example of how we should act, but it takes these lessons from different religions and it recognizes no one religion over another, and does not say that it's members must believe in the sources from which these lessons are taken. So no, I do not believe that Freemasonry is a religion. The aspects of it that make it non-religious far outweigh those aspects that make it appear to some to be a religion. Albert Pike is however, not the only one, that stated clearly, that freemasonry is a religion : "Masonry is, in every sense of the word, except one, and that its least philosophical, an eminently religious institution - that it is indebted solely to the religious element which it contains for its origin and for its continued existence and that without this religious element it would scarcely be worthy of cultivation by the wise and good."..."Freemasonry is NOT Christianity nor a substitute for it"...."But the religion of Masonry is not sectarian. t admits men of every creed within its hospitable bosom, rejecting none and approving none for his particular faith"..."Masonry, then, is, indeed, a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it." (Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, Albert G. Mackey, Revised Edition, 1921, pages 618, 619)
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Post by elshamah on Jun 4, 2008 22:23:37 GMT
elshamah I do not agree that Pike saw Freemasonry as a Religion, as I have already pointed out he clearly stated it was not a Religion, but you have to understand the time at which he wrote. Civil War , Slavery, Rulling Classes, the powerful were very powerful. The Church would have been at the heart of most of the creation of Freemasonry. In the UK the UGLE Grand Chaplain was either the 'Arch Bishop of Canterbury' or one of the Leading Bishops of the day until the 1960's. It would have been odd if he did not align his writings to his Faith. OK Full paragraph: That of bronze, which survived the flood, is supposed to symbolize the mysteries, of which Masonry is the legitimate successor - from the earliest times the custodian and depository of the great philosophical and religious truths, unknown to the world at large, and handed down from age to age by an unbroken current of tradition, embodied in symbols, emblems, and allegories. Masonry labors to improve the social order by enlightening men's minds, warming their hearts with the love of the good, inspiring them with the great principle of human fraternity, and requiring of its disciples that their language and actions shall conform to that principle, that they shall enlighten each other, control their passions, abhor vice, and pity the vicious man as one afflicted with a deplorable malady. It is the universal, eternal, immutable religion, such as God planted it in the heart of universal humanity. No creed has ever been long-lived that was not built on this foundation. It is the base, and they are the superstructure. "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." "Is not this the fast that I have chosen ? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke ?" The ministers of this religion are all Masons who comprehend it and are devoted to it; its sacrifices to God are good works, the sacrifices of the base and disorderly passions, the offering up of self-interest on the altar of humanity, and perpetual efforts to attain to all the moral perfection of which man is capable. Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion. For here are inculcated disinterestedness, affection, toleration, devotedness, patriotism, truth, a generous sympathy with those who suffer and mourn, pity for the fallen, mercy for the erring, relief for those in want, Faith, Hope, and Charity. Here we meet as brethren, to learn to know and love each other. Here we greet each other gladly, are lenient to each other's faults, regardful of each other's feelings, ready to relieve each other's wants. This is the true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures. If unworthy passions, or selfish, bitter, or revengeful feelings, contempt, dislike, hatred, enter here, they are intruders and n t welcome, strangers uninvited, and not guests. Certainly there are many evils and bad passions, and much hate and contempt and unkindness everywhere in the world. We cannot refuse to see the evil -that is in life. But all is not evil. We still see God in the world. There is good amidst the evil. The hand of mercy leads wealth to the hovels of poverty and sorrow. Truth and simplicity live amid many wiles and sophistries. There are good hearts underneath gay robes, and under tattered garments also. Here I agree Pike has gone off into an intricate winding of his mind which I say he has used the wrong words. What he is saying is there are certain universal truths that form the basis of all Religions. But at the time of writing he would not have thought it strange or odd or that anyone would object in the future. But elshamah, is it not an odd Satanic Religion that wants to keep the Faith in the Bible, care for the sick and elderly, keep love for your fellow creatures. He touches here on the word religion again but when you read all the passages you undertsand what he was trying to convey, that a Masonic Lodge just teaches the same lessons you will find in the Bible. my pdf copy p.199 No one Mason has the right to measure for another, within the walls of a Masonic Temple, the degree of veneration which he shall feel for any Reformer, or the Founder of any Religion. We teach a belief in no particular creed, as we teach unbelief in none. my pdf copy p.539 To us, its three sides represent the three principal attributes of the Deity, which created, and now, as ever, support, uphold, and guide the Universe in its eternal movement; the three supports of the Masonic Temple, itself an emblem of the Universe:--Wisdom, or the Infinite Divine Intelligence; Strength, or Power, the Infinite Divine Will; and Beauty, or the Infinite Divine Harmony, the Eternal Law, by virtue of which the infinite myriads of suns and worlds flash ever onward in their ceaseless revolutions, without clash or conflict, in the Infinite of space, and change and movement are the law of all created existences. you have a hard time to explain - that's evident , and , honestly, you do not convince me. THE GRAND ARCHITECT OF THE UNIVERSE Masonic ritual is concerned with the recovery of the name of God - supposedly lost through the murder, during the building of Solomon's Temple of the Architect, Hiram Abiff - a 'Quest' not attained until the ROYAL ARCH DEGREE. It is here that the SECRET NAME of the DEITY OF MASONRY is revealed. That name is 'JAOBULON'. 'JAO' is the Greek word for Jehovah. 'BUL' is a rendering of the name, BAAL. 'ON' is the term used in the Babylonian mysteries to call upon the deity, 'OSIRIS'! The secret ritual book of the Craft prints the letters J.B.O. It states that: "We three do meet and agree - in peace, love and unity - the Sacred Word to keep - and never to divulge the same - until we three, or three such as we - do meet and agree." Thus, no Royal Arch Mason can pronounce the whole sacred name by himself! What you see represented, then, as the god of Freemasonry, is a three headed monster so remote from the Christian trinity as to be so blasphemous as to damn the eternal soul of anyone who would dare to pronounce its name in a ritual of worship! how do you explain this ??
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Post by maximus on Jun 4, 2008 22:43:16 GMT
elshama/Angelo,
Let me state catagorically and unequivocally the following:
Albert Pike was not the head of Freemasonry. No one speaks for Freemasonry as a whole, each Grand Lodge is an autonimous entity.
Morals and Dogma is an exploration in comparative religion and mythology, including Christian mythology.
Morals and Dogma is not now, nor has it ever been, any sort of "handbook" of Freemasonry. It was an official publication of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction, USA. It was not then, nor is it now, required reading for members of the AASR.
Freemasonry is not a religion, nor a replacement for religion. It requires that a belief in a Supeme being already exists (except for the GLdF).
Mankind can improve themselves without recourse to religion. It is called Philosophy, particularly as practiced by the greeks, and is the cornerstone of western Civilisation. As I pointed out before, and you coose not to adress, the Theocracy that was imposed on the people of Europe by the Church led to the devolution of the West from a civilised society under the rule of law, in the time of Rome, to a pestlistic backwater of darkness during the Middle Ages. It was due to the efforts of Freemasons that mankind was brought out of this era into a more enlightened age, based on science and the philosophy of Aristotle as the underpinnings of a new age of thought.
The Rights of Man, The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution of the United States, etc., were all founded on freemasonic principles of Liberty, Equality, and Faternity. Seperation of Church and State was essential to break the chains of ignorance that had plagued mankind for too long. The very right of Freedom of Religion is a Masonic principle, which is embodied in the very structure of the Lodge.
So, you see my friend, to disparage Freemasonry as a Satanic institution is to imply that Western Civilisation itself is inherently Satanic, which puts one on par with the little man in charge of Iran, who puts forth the same sentiments.
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Post by lauderdale on Jun 4, 2008 22:47:00 GMT
There are some who hold that Jah-Bul-On actually means "The God who is" . Of course the other name used is Je-Ho-Vah . Do you prefer that name?
It's all irrelevant as we cannot know the true name of God, the various names we ascribe to the Deity are but human constructs.
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