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Post by atarnaris on Oct 30, 2005 17:55:11 GMT
As some might be aware I have recently visited Boston, MA and a couple of Lodges there. What stroke me from the discussions we had there is that the Lodges managed their own accounts, and invested the charity money to funds without getting permission form GL etc. So this particular Lodge mentioned that they had something like £40000 savings from their own investements.Mind you, this was a moderate sized Lodge (with 70 enlisted members) but no more than 15 memebrs actively attending in average (their words)
Why is this not happening in UGLE? And if it does how did this occur?
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bod
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Post by bod on Oct 30, 2005 18:20:02 GMT
I don't quite understand what you mean, Bro Andrew, are you tling about the alms collection in lodge? If so, as far as I know, the lodge can use this money as it sees fit, as long as the purpose, i.e. destination, of the collection is stated beforehand.
I think thats the way it works, but I'm sure there will be someone more informed along shortly.....
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Post by taylorsman on Oct 30, 2005 18:26:35 GMT
Andrew, that is how it ought to be! For once I bow to the Yanks!
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giovanni
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odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
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Post by giovanni on Oct 30, 2005 18:34:55 GMT
well, Steve, bow then to the Italians, too. We do the same.
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Post by atarnaris on Oct 31, 2005 11:55:39 GMT
Bro Bod,
I was given to understand that all money irrespective of where they come from are managed by themselves. I.e. alms, charity money go to an account that is financially managed by the Lodge members only, by investementing them (don't ask me in what). Following that, they give money for charitable causes they feel like and not on the Grand Charity as it happens in UGLE land, as you well know.
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Post by JulesTheBit on Oct 31, 2005 12:34:16 GMT
Andrew and all
English Lodges can and do manage their own funds. There is a tendency to put the money in "relief chests" managed by provinces or UGLE and on which decent interest is earned. This simply makes the financial management easier for the charity steward, especially if the Lodge has no members skilled in funds management.
Money in those relief chests still belongs to the Lodge and can be donated to any charity, even non-Masonic ones. The only restriction is that relief chests must be used for charitable purposes. So if a Lodge wants to save up for a free beer night the funds for that must be managed separately and can't pass through the relief chest.
In the provinces there's pressure to be part of the festival system, but that's a different issue.
JS Charity Steward, 4106 Past Charity Steward, 6484
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bod
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Post by bod on Oct 31, 2005 19:36:02 GMT
Exactly my understanding too Jules, Bro Andrew, as far as I know there is an element of the capitation fee that goes to Grand Charity, but after that it is up to the individual brother if he wishes to donate to Grand Charity or not. In that respect there isn't that much of a difference, unless I'm missing something.
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Post by taylorsman on Oct 31, 2005 20:05:54 GMT
Bro Julian summed it up thus "In the provinces there's pressure to be part of the festival system, but that's a different issue"
Abolish this anachronism and give Lodges in the Provinces Carte Blanche to contribute to Charities be these Masonic or otherwise as they feel fit. After all, as has been said every Freemason pays a Capitation Levy in his Annual Subs to the Grand Charity.
I am only now a member of one Lodge in a Province but next time I am asked to contribute to a Festival I may politely decline and instead ask if my contribution can go to a bona fide Charity in Brighton, or otherwise I may contribute directly to such a Good Cause in that Town, get a receipt and send that to the Charity Steward and ask him to account that to my name as a Charitable Contribution.
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bod
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Post by bod on Oct 31, 2005 20:11:59 GMT
Not all festivals raise money for masonic charities.
No-one is going to pressurise any mason to give if they don't want to - you simply say 'not this time' and leave it at that.
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Post by taylorsman on Oct 31, 2005 20:46:19 GMT
That depends on how resistant one is to "pressure".
It is no use offering me a good Promotion when it comes to Honours time and making that dependent on my contributing to a Festival. It simply wouldn't work with me. I have an Honour, I am happy with that. However think of a new WM or someone not long out of The Chair. They might be more malleable to such approaches.
The Masonic Charities do a lot of good to be sure but should compete on their merits with other Charities and if a Lodge in the Province of "Loamshire" decides after due discussion that it wants to opt out of the Festival that its PGM is sponsoring and instead contribute to the local OAP Minibus, or MRI Scanner Appeal or Prostate Cancer Research or whatever it should be totally free to do so with no "Arm Twisting".
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bod
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Post by bod on Oct 31, 2005 20:57:59 GMT
WIth you in sentment on the last point Steve, however, it is a also a matter of the power of collective.....well, collecting, I guess. Loamside Lodge number 4x may not be able to buy a scanner for the Cottage Hospital in it's own right - they could well decide to donate the Masters List from that year to the scanner appeal, but if Loamshire Province gathered the bawbees from all of the fifty lodges in its area it could possibly afford to fund a whole scanner, plus someone to operate it for a year. Taking an active part in a festival as a lodge should, and to all intents and purposes is, be a matter for the lodge committee to decide upon, and I accept there are those who have their eye on the apparent reflected glory it may bring them in years to come, but is that seriously their only motivation? Collective giving by freemasons in all jurisdictions has had fantastic results, and has delivered in spades. Whats the point in having nearly 40k stuck in the bank when it could be paying for food parcels, fuel for the minibus for Doris and Ethel to go off to Bluewater in their hoodies, or a myriad other projects?
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Post by cameron on Oct 31, 2005 22:52:43 GMT
From Taylorsman's comment, it appears that it may be acceptable at least in some circles, to buy 'promotion' with charitable donations. I thought we were all Freemasons here!
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Post by taylorsman on Nov 1, 2005 3:44:53 GMT
Despite my love of the Esoteric and Symbolical (of which you are well aware) I live in the REAL World not in an idealised one and I am afraid that Ambition has fertile soil in the Craft as it is run over here, it may be different as are a lot of things in the Antipodes.
Even if baseless and driven by envy, the way that Honours are allocated in the Provincial Structure and the "Festival " system of Charity Fundraising does give rise to the remarks heard only too often in the Bar at Honours time that "he bought his honour". I feel that a simpler more "Transparent" Provincial Honours System as in London , driven by recommendation from the Brother's Lodge, and a more modern method of Charity Fund Raising would go a long way to remove such allegations.
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Post by Proton on Nov 1, 2005 11:03:14 GMT
There will always be an element of envy as to who gets what at the time when honours are awarded, particularly in the Provinces. Whilst the London system is seen to be fairer. This is as Taylorsman has said a simpler system. The meritocracy that exists in masonry, is not easy to manage and transparency would go a long way to alleviate the levels of discord that exist after honours and promotions are awarded. I do feel that some form of transparency should exist to alleviate the collar collector and cheque book masonry comments, that we can and do hear too often. Or is this just a plain case of misery loves company and join my pitty party as I did not get what I wanted I do see an unfortunate side of human nature appearing here, jealousy! But in reality will you be able to stop it? I would surmise that this is a matter that will get worse as in some provinces have seen a cut in the number of appointments and promotions that are available. So there will be increased competition. Any more views? Proton
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Post by JulesTheBit on Nov 1, 2005 15:30:58 GMT
Bod
Which Festivals are for non-Masonic charities then? I'm talking aboyt the festival system adminstered by the Grand Charity. Maybe you're tinking of individual Lodge ladies festivals or whatever, that's not what I meant.
S&F, Julian
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Post by JulesTheBit on Nov 1, 2005 15:34:28 GMT
Proton
Most provinces will have seen a cut in honours available, and I hope there are a lot more to come.
From what I can see in the 1 province where I was involved in the honours system, and in London, charity contributions are not even considered when honours are handed out. There are no questions about it on the recommendation form.
JS
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Post by Proton on Nov 1, 2005 17:04:34 GMT
I can however assure you that there is one province in the south east where that is the reverse. I beleive a check is made to see if a contribution is being made to charity and not the level of contribution.
Just because the form does not have the box to tick or mark does not mean that charity contributions are ignored.
This is where Taylorsmans' Transparency issue comes in and it is another means in which the decision makers can decide which promotions and appointments to give and to whom.
Proton
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Post by JulesTheBit on Nov 2, 2005 13:38:13 GMT
I can however assure you that there is one province in the south east where that is the reverse. I beleive a check is made to see if a contribution is being made to charity and not the level of contribution. Just because the form does not have the box to tick or mark does not mean that charity contributions are ignored. This is where Taylorsmans' Transparency issue comes in and it is another means in which the decision makers can decide which promotions and appointments to give and to whom. Proton That sounds a most unfair system. There are some individuals who do not use Gift Aid because they do not earn enough to pay tax, and do not like standing orders. How on earth does that province check what, if anything, these people put in the alms bag? JS
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Post by taylorsman on Nov 2, 2005 16:27:06 GMT
Some also do not like any tally being taken of what they give but prefer their Charitable Contributions to be anonymous, hence Gift Aid will not appeal to them.
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Post by Proton on Nov 7, 2005 23:05:46 GMT
[glow=red,2,300]That sounds a most unfair system. There are some individuals who do not use Gift Aid because they do not earn enough to pay tax, and do not like standing orders. How on earth does that province check what, if anything, these people put in the alms bag? JS [/glow] JS It must be remembered that the Gift Aid process is relatively new, and is not the only way to give. Where this check came in that I mentioned was with the big festivals and the province where I subscribed was fund raising for the 2004 RMBI festivel. Where funds were raised mainly by Standing Onder Mandate, which you will be familiar with. The Festival Chairman had a laptop PC with every contributors name in it and how much was contributed. As stated, at the end of the festival a check was done on to see if a contribution was made. There were brethren who saved 20p coins in a smarties tube, so I was told, with each tube holds £14 cash in 20ps. The problem was and will always be the need for these charities to claim back the tax and a figure of £28,000, so I was told, was not claimed as there was insufficient supporting documentation to claim it back. So what assistance would that extra sum provide? Sadly it does work the other way because of the thirst and hunger for money that the Masonic charities require. I recognise that not all savings schemes are suitable for all types of brethren. If this is the case then try and invent your own methods. It is only recently that the Gift Aid envelopes have appeared. I have a batch of them as C Stew of a lodge in London. Proton
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