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Post by Jumile on Nov 21, 2005 17:21:14 GMT
Hi all, Ok, so this issues pops up its head on Masonic fora on a regular basis, but it doesn't seem to have done so here yet... Following on from the "other order" thread currently on the polls board, what would be the next logical step for a newly raised MM: Mark or Chapter? Which one, and why? I already know that both interest me, and I understand that Mark is seen to be the completion of the Second and that Chapter is seen to be the completion of the Third (as well as the olive branch used to unite the Antients and Moderns). As discussed previously, I know that UGLE try to drag you into Chapter as they're presenting you the MM Certificate - presumably because they run it and so have a financial stake in it (I'm too young to be a cynic). That of course does not detract from its intrinsic value - it just makes me wary. I'm planning on taking action on this in the next Masonic season, but it doesn't hurt to get the groundwork done early. My queries are along the lines of time (meetings per year and their length), obligations (chair progression, ritual to learn), location (need to be in the same PGL as your Craft lodge?), costs (fees, dining, regalia), and anything else. I've heard various pieces of advice thus far, which are naturally based on the orders the givers belong to. The one that stands out is whether you'll join both orders. Am I right in thinking the consensus is that if you know you're only going to join one order, then Chapter should be it. If so, why? Discuss...
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Post by munkholt on Nov 21, 2005 18:48:18 GMT
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 21, 2005 20:32:23 GMT
My queries are along the lines of time (meetings per year and their length), obligations (chair progression, ritual to learn), location (need to be in the same PGL as your Craft lodge?), costs (fees, dining, regalia), and anything else. Discuss... Matt Firstly, I would always recommend Mark First, with one exception if you definately were only going to join one other Side Order/Degree. The arguments for and against are on the links Thomas has highlighted. So, I will try to answer your specefic questions above; Both Chapter and Mark in The London Area (where you are) normally meet 3 times per year some London Chapters meet 4 times but they are fewer and further between. Cost are approx £35.00 to £45.00 per annum unless you go Dining inclusive which is around £90.00 to £110.00 Chair progression is very different, if you do every office in Chapter you can be in The 3rd Principals Chair in 4 years (2nd Assistant Sojourner, 1st Assistant Sojourner, Principal Sojourner and Scribe Nehemiah) then you would do 2nd principal and then you would be 1st principal (MEZ). In Mark it takes 9 years to get to the Chair if you do every office, IG, JD, SD, Junior Overseer, SO, MO, JW, SW. Length of meetings varies if you have a candidate and election of Officers it could take 2 hours plus, if you only have a lecture 1 hour perhaps 1 1/2 hours. Regalia for Chapter is slightly more expensive for Chapter because you have to buy a sash as well as Apron and Jewel. £40-45 for Mark £55.00 to £65.00 for Chapter (I may be slightly out on these figures it has been a while and I have not had to buy any Chapter or mark regalia for a while. There is absolutely no need to join the unit attached to your Lodge (in the case of Chapter) or even be in the same Province as your Lodge. If you have a close friend who meets in Bedford there is nothing stopping you joining in Bedford. The first 9 Orders I joined apart from RAM met in a different centre and in several different Provinces, I always wanted to meet different people and as I knew they were Masons it never worried me going somewhere new. Finally, as in all Freemasonry there is a lot of learning of ritual. There are wonderful offices in both orders The PS in Chapter is one of the very best and the SD and Master Overseer in Mark as well as SW are also great offices, I am afraid the old saying you only get out what you put in springs to mind! As for the Top job: The Masters work in Mark is by far the most work that a Master undertakes in one go, in Chapter if you were doing the Exhaltation as well as the First Principals Lecture that is also momentous! I hope there is some answers for you here. Above all whatever you do, good luck and enjoy!
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Post by Jumile on Nov 22, 2005 17:11:31 GMT
Oops, my apologies to all for the duplication of posts. I'm usually quite fastidious about such things. Thanks for your pointers and advice. I now need to go away to read and digest it all. But please... if anyone has anything else to add, don't let that stop you (yeah, like it would). ;D
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Post by Jumile on Nov 22, 2005 17:15:01 GMT
And I've just realised that Lee's post was something I responded to back when it was posted. D'oh!
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bod
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UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
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Post by bod on Nov 23, 2005 23:33:19 GMT
Neither!
OSM is the way forward - no regalia to buy just a breast jewel, and you get to wear robes in the chair!
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Nov 24, 2005 7:28:06 GMT
It is well known amongst whispers that if you want to "get on and impresss" then Chapter is a neccessity.
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Post by mrmason on Nov 24, 2005 8:13:34 GMT
If nothing else the Mark is the next logical step in the timeline of the various degrees. I personaly would recommend the Mark then Chapter then Cryptic, before moving on to the various other orders. That way it puts to rest all the "Hiramic" degrees. Having said that I never joined the Cryptic until later, something which I regret now as it has the most moving piece of masonic ritual I've came across yet!
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Post by Jumile on Nov 24, 2005 13:27:10 GMT
Now I just need to find someone in a Mark lodge that meets somewhere within 20 miles of Reading (Henley, Sindlesham, etc). Anyone?
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 25, 2005 9:24:20 GMT
Now I just need to find someone in a Mark lodge that meets somewhere within 20 miles of Reading (Henley, Sindlesham, etc). Anyone? Matt I was a founder of Beaconsfield Mark (1994) that meets at Slough, 3 x per year. Slough Masonic Centre is one of the best, it provides great festive boards and has a wonderfully re-furbished Temple, it is one of my favorite places to meet. I will let you have details when I see you. I am sure there will be other offers!! MP
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Nov 26, 2005 8:05:01 GMT
Neither! OSM is the way forward - no regalia to buy just a breast jewel, and you get to wear robes in the chair! If there is no additional regalia then you can easily get away with telling the missus that you are just visiting another lodge without her spotting any new apron/regalia in your case. Let you all into a secret. SSsh ........i told my other half that i was going to join Mark ages ago and when i was Advanced she just took it as a visit to a lodge. BUT .... as all us guys know it would have long been forgotten by her that i ever told her in the first place as it didnt involve shopping or make up and then it will be the case that i never ever did tell her that i was going to join a Mark Lodge. SO....The apron is tucked away in the back section of my soft carry case so not to be seen by any prying eyes. The correspondence is one of many and now am between a rock and a hard place as if i do discuss it then i will be accussed of never having told her and doing things without consulting and if i dont then she will say i have been deceitful and i will be accussed of exactly the same. Oh Dear.! The master elect of our lodge is in Chapter and Mark and his wife believes it is all one thing and another brother told his wife when he joined chapter that it was just part of the progression after being a master mason. I think maybe i will just keep my gob shut. This however really raises a question of how many do actually tell their partners EXACTLY WHAT they are in in FM. MP ! care to enlighten us ? ;D
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Post by mrmason on Nov 26, 2005 8:09:45 GMT
Lee, I can see that hole just getting bigger, throw the spade down
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Nov 26, 2005 8:32:18 GMT
Lee, I can see that hole just getting bigger, throw the spade down Bob, you have just given me a great idea and an alternative remedy. Thanks off out now to the builders merchants to get a bag of lime. ;D
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Post by gcoudert on Nov 26, 2005 10:24:47 GMT
Lee, Brotherly Love, Relief, and... Truth... ;D Tell her! Mine knows everything except for what she mustn't, and we're both happier that way. GIlles
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Post by cameron on Nov 26, 2005 10:32:56 GMT
We don't have this dilemma in NZ. We have three Degrees in the Chapter, Mark Master, Excellent Master and Royal Arch. So it's all decided for you.
And if you think about it, there is really VERY little that your dearly beloved is not supposed to know!
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Nov 26, 2005 10:45:30 GMT
Lee, Brotherly Love, Relief, and... Truth... ;D Tell her! Mine knows everything except for what she mustn't, and we're both happier that way. GIlles But ive already told her !!!!! ages ago.
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Post by taylorsman on Nov 26, 2005 12:06:25 GMT
Matt, if Saturdays are ok for you then there is Merlaue Weir Mark and RAM which meet at a lovely little Masonic Hall in picturesque Marlow. It is very convenient for me as both bodies meet on the same day. They are a very friendly group and the PGM of Buckinghamshire Mark and his Deputy are Members of both. If you are interested get back to me and I will get you the necessary form.
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Post by Proton on Nov 26, 2005 13:34:26 GMT
Jumile, Firstly Chapter is NOT the completion of the third degree, this part of the ritual was removed, after discussion and an election, at a meeting of Supreme Grand Chapter, at Great Queen Street, in November 2004. In my view Chapter can be considered an extension of the third degree. Like Mark is an extension of the second degree. If I were you (and if I had my time all over again) I would do the Mark degree next. Then Chapter. Mark in England has its own Grand Lodge of Mark Master Masons, as masonry has developed differently south of the border in the UK. In Scotland and Ireland, the Mark is worked in Craft lodges as a fourth degree, so I have been told. I am aware, that in Scotland, the Mark can be worked in Chapter also. It is a requirement for joining Chapter in Scotland and Ireland, that a future companion must be in the Mark also. Lastly there is the Ceremony of Passing the Veils which in the EC is only done in Bristol as it was revived there in 1904, but is modelled along the Irish veils. Elsewher in England this ceremony is not done but was removed from the Chapter ritual in 1834 following a report by a working party chaired by the Duke of Sussex (Taylorsmans favourite brother! ) In Scotland the Passing the Veils ceremony has different, signs tokens and works. If Mr Mason can add a bit here on this, I would be grateful. I myself am looking to get a group of us forumites up to Scotland to do this (the veils) ceremony, and I have had some interest already from some forumites. It is a case of location a chapter that is willing to undertake this, perhaps next year. Proton
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 26, 2005 14:14:22 GMT
[quote author=admin board=General thread=1132593674 post=1132992301 This however really raises a question of how many do actually tell their partners EXACTLY WHAT they are in in FM. MP ! care to enlighten us ? ;D [/quote] Lee My good lady has never actually asked me How many?!! All she insists is that I fill in the Kitchen Calender the days that I am out so she can organise around that. I normally write in all the meetings I might attend as well so as to cover myself! Then if I am a good husband she does not get too annoyed if I say "Oh, I have a meeting to go to that I forgot about". (Emanation Lodge on monday!). She will also go through the list and tell me if I cannot go to any of the meetings due to School stuff for the boys, hospital or other important events. These all take priority of course. The only thing I try (so far successfully!) to attend every meeting is my Mother Lodge, to do this I have had to miss my wifes Birthday (twice!) and give up tickets to a couple of shows I wanted to see! I have always said that I am incredibly lucky to have the most understanding of partners!
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 26, 2005 16:12:39 GMT
Supreme Grand Chapter In England, the Royal Arch is considered to be the completion of "pure ancient Masonry". In the Craft the candidate is presented with a series of eminently practical principles and tenets which if he practises them he may hope to live a life pleasing to his God, however he worships him, and of service to his fellow man. But man is not simply a practical being, he has an essential spiritual aspect to his nature. That spiritual aspect is introduced in the Third Degree, in which the candidate is led to a contemplation of man's inevitable destiny, and becomes the central message of the Royal Arch. In that sense, "pure ancient Masonry" can be seen as a journey of self - knowledge and discovery with the Royal Arch completing the practical lessons of the Craft by a contemplation of man's spiritual nature, not replacing but reinforcing and supporting what he has learned from his religion. www.grandchapter.net/royal-arch/index.htm
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