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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 15, 2008 6:40:25 GMT
Yes there are now 2 Halcyon Lodges in the same town.
I hope it gets sorted out.
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 15, 2008 8:54:45 GMT
Having read many of Bro Jeff's postings on various Masonic Fora, and speaking purely as an individual I wish him and GOUSA's Halcyon Lodge my Best Wishes and future success.
I won't comment further as the matter is pendent lite as regards Halcyon Lodge of GOUSA Vs The GL of Ohio, but await the outcome of this Court Case with interest.
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Post by corab on Oct 30, 2008 13:46:36 GMT
What is even more curious is news that the GOUSA is opening a Rectified Scottish Rite lodge with the assistance of the GOdF and GLTSO. Ah, but that is interesting indeed, Architekt -- do you have a source for that news, please? S&F, Cora
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Post by xiii on Oct 30, 2008 17:52:01 GMT
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Post by corab on Oct 31, 2008 0:01:16 GMT
Thanks -- very interesting.
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Post by brandt on Oct 31, 2008 14:11:37 GMT
Extremely interesting I would say.
Brandt
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Post by middlepillar on Oct 31, 2008 14:43:12 GMT
That would be interesting then!
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Post by brandt on Oct 31, 2008 15:22:57 GMT
It is a big funny planet that we live on. Nothing shocks me and anything is possible.
Brandt
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Post by teddyballgame on Nov 2, 2008 5:39:58 GMT
"What is even more curious is news that the GOUSA is opening a Rectified Scottish Rite lodge with the assistance of the GOdF and GLTSO. This is a Christian Masonic body - not sure exactly how this fits in with the GOdF or GOUSA philosophy."
If I am correct, the GOUSA philosophy has a /;freedom of conscience" policy, if a group of Brothers wish to practice/study the Rectified Scottish Rite, it is their Freedom to do so?
I am not that familiar with the Rectified Rite, but sounds interesting. Does this mean that Grand Rapids will have 2 Lodges?
This concept of Freedom to work different Rites is very interesting!
Brother Brandt, what other Rites are available to the GOUSA Lodges?
How did the communication go in Cleveland?
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Post by brandt on Nov 2, 2008 7:16:32 GMT
Brother, Yes, there will be (actually there are now) two Grand Orient lodges in Grand Rapids, Euclid which works the Scottish Rite and Three Luminaries which works the Rectified Scottish Rite. You are correct. A Grand Orient lodge is free to select a Masonic rite that best suits the lodge.
Most of the Grand Orient lodges currently use the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite or the Modern Rite. There is a lodge that works Emulation and one that works the Rectified Scottish Rite. There are several other rites of Masonry and the symbolic grades of those rites are open to the Grand Orient lodges if they so choose.
Cleveland was awesome. It was Brethren from three different lodges that came together and initiated a new Brother. Then there was food and drink and a definite celebration of Brotherhood.
Brandt
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Post by xiii on Nov 2, 2008 9:07:14 GMT
The GOdF actually has a long history with the RER, so they didn't just invent a de-christianized ritual to suit their ideals. Nobody claimed that, I know, just saying that they made it work for them, so maybe the GO-USA can too.
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 2, 2008 9:58:57 GMT
It has nothing to do with Christianity, in 1877 the GOdF took the decision to admit Atheists, they knew when they took that decision it would alienate than from the Bulk of the Grand Lodges in the world. A belief in a supreme being is one of the original landmarks.
Many Lodges split off from the GOdF and formed the Grand Lodge de France.The GOdF was then instrumental in founding the left wing Republican Party which also brought it into conflict with another of the original Landmarks of Freemasonry.
So, this idea that GOdF was thrown out of mainstream Masonry is not supported by facts.
Like all of us, they make decisions, those decisions have consequences.
If you have no Faith in a supreme being and do not wish to keep politics out of your Freemasonry then GOdF is the Grand Lodge for you.
My problem with GO-USA as I have said before, the switch from belief in a 'supreme being' and 'non political' and 'male only' GL as the United Grand Lodge of US to Grand Orient status. Now I know its not that simple, but that is how it looks to the rest of the Masonic community.
In other words how do you obtain or accept a Patent if you are not in agreement with the GOdF policy.
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Post by brandt on Nov 2, 2008 15:24:58 GMT
Good Morning Brother Bill, Now here is philosophy stuff that I can sink my teeth into. I was not involved in the Grand Lodge of America so I can't comment on that.
The Grand Orient of the United States is a male only organization. There are strong relations with female only and mixed gender organizations. That does not change the fact that the Grand Orient is a masculine organization. As to non-political. That would depend strongly on what one considers political.
The Grand Orient is not involved in the formation of political parties nor in the endorsement of candidates for political office. We are however not blind to the fact that citizens should be active and informed in a free republic. This is a fine line I know but there is a difference between partisan activity and political science.
Belief in Deity is not thrown out. It is simply not addressed. This is a complex issue that may not be best covered in this particular thread. You are correct though. It is not as simply as it seems.
Frat.·. Brandt
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Nov 2, 2008 17:22:15 GMT
In fairness Bro. Bill, the GOdF was not "thrown out" of so-called "mainstream" Masonry. No Obedience has that power.
Some Obediences, acting as a cohesive bloc, simply decided to stop talking to GOdF. And that's all.
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 2, 2008 17:58:42 GMT
It has been said and inferred by many, on many forum that GOdF was rejected on mass. My point was that it knew that this would happen. They knew that taking that vote [in whenever way that happened - they changed the rules] would in affect be rejecting mainstream Freemasonry. Recognition of the GOdF was removed, changed altered, by the vast majority of the then mainstream Masonic GL's as a direct result of this action. . Before the change they were recognised. It matters not if you or I agree or disagree with their position, that is what happened.
Brandt , yes I know what it says on the GOoUS web site, but if there is no acceptance of the Grand Orient basic principles , then why is the patent so important as to be celebrated.
From The Grand Orient de France web site: Whereas in other forms of Masonry - particularly those which are the direct descendants of English Masonry and have retained their dogmas - a member must be a practising believer, the Grand Orient de France as an institution, is a society which practises Absolute Freedom of Conscience that is to say it leaves its members free to believe in a revealed truth whatever it may be or to be totally agnostic. Thus in the Masonic Lodges we find believers of all faiths together with atheists, agnostics and freethinkers. This is the meaning of the freedom of conscience which the Grand Orient de France defends when it defends secularism in all the activities of the state and not only in education which it wants to see remain free, nondenominational and compulsory for all .
Wiki information : It was one of the first Masonic orders to allow some of its lodges to become adoptive (i.e. to admit women although it does not initiate them). In 1774, following the introduction of Rites of Adoption in several of its lodges, it issued an edict authorising them, the Duchess of Bourbon being elected first Grand Mistress of France.
Unlike the Anglo-Masonic Grand Lodges (especially those affiliated to the United Grand Lodge of England), the Grand Orient of France allows the discussion of political issues and religion in lodge.
Schism with the United Grand Lodge of England In 1877, at the instigation of the Protestant priest Frédéric Desmons, it allowed those who had no belief in a Supreme being - which the United Grand Lodge of England (UGLE) and related Lodges regarded as a Masonic Landmark - to be admitted.[18]
It was this decision that has been the root cause of the schism between the Grand Orient (and those lodges that followed it), and the rest of Freemasonry. It is a schism in Freemasonry which continues to this day. It is argued that the definition is ambiguous, that Anderson's Landmarks are his own collection and interpretation of the historical landmarks, and that changes in both interpretation and practice have occurred before and since. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Orient_de_France#Atheism
I do not mind if this is the Freemasonry that suites anyone, but what I do mind if you say one thing but then do another.
The GOoUS has a patent from the Grand Orient of France, what then is the purpose of the patent if you do not agree with the principles.
It seems like, you want to be a Ford Dealer but you have Purgeot and Citroen cars on the forecourt. Now I have no objection, I just want you all to be open about what the intentions are.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Nov 2, 2008 18:07:08 GMT
This would not be the first time a Grand Lodge has allowed Her daughters a certain amount of autonomy. The Besant Protocol is what allowed(s) the British and US federations of LDH to require believe in a Supreme Being, despite the usual LDH policy of not addressing it at all.
So the GOdF's apparent decision to permit the GOdUSA Her own autonomy in such matters does have precedent.
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Post by brandt on Nov 2, 2008 18:17:29 GMT
Brother Bill, The Grand Orient of the United States is not the Grand Orient of France transplanted into the US. It is its own animal so to speak. There is religion and politics discussed in some of our lodges along with many other subjects. That does not equate to the Grand Orient taking a particular political stand other than a decided belief and support of the certain matters that are considered fundamental human rights which really do transcend politics.
Regarding freedom of conscience. We do agree with the Grand Orient of France on that matter.
Brandt
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 2, 2008 20:46:57 GMT
Brother Bill, The Grand Orient of the United States is not the Grand Orient of France transplanted into the US. It is its own animal so to speak. There is religion and politics discussed in some of our lodges along with many other subjects. That does not equate to the Grand Orient taking a particular political stand other than a decided belief and support of the certain matters that are considered fundamental human rights which really do transcend politics. Regarding freedom of conscience. We do agree with the Grand Orient of France on that matter. Brandt I have not said it is. This thread is titled The author of the post is asking why the 'Rectified Scottish Rite' ? I am asking a) then why the patent b) Why celebrate this relationship if you don't agree with GOdF You have just said you do agree that it is OK to discuss politics in Lodge and that it is OK not to believe in a supreme being. That you work with Female and Co Masonry. I am having trouble seeing the difference. There may not be any, and that is just fine you must be what you want to be. Lets see if I can understand more, could I visit your Lodge could Karen visit your Lodge could an atheist be initiated into your Lodge could a Female Freemason visit your Lodge and while we are all there can we discuss the Presidential election ?
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Post by brandt on Nov 2, 2008 21:23:41 GMT
"could I visit your Lodge" Of course you could visit my lodge. There would be no problem with it at all. You are a Mason. The only time that we would not allow you to visit is if there were matters being discussed that were private lodge business but that would go for any Mason visiting. We may ask you to step out of the lodge for a short time while we dealt with that business.
"could Karen visit your Lodge" Brother Karen would be more than welcome in Euclid Lodge. She would be treated with a great deal of respect and be subjected to the standard Euclid hospitality.
"could an atheist be initiated into your Lodge" Yes, though he would have to meet all the other criteria that any other petitioner would have to meet.
"could a Female Freemason visit your Lodge" Yes
"while we are all there can we discuss the Presidential election" Sure as long as you don't stump for a particular candidate but you could discuss the ramifications of various policies.
Frat.·. Brandt
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Nov 2, 2008 22:33:46 GMT
Yes, but that duck is still a bird. Ah, I love the random quality of a Sunday afternoon forum frolic
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