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Post by munkholt on Jan 31, 2006 8:31:57 GMT
Following squirebentley's decision to switch to PH, I looked in on my own GL's list of recognised GLs, and to my surprise, I realised that none of the PHs were there. So I've written and asked about that, seeing as UGLE already has about 25 PH GLs on their list.
After some back and forth, the Grand Secretary answered that any foreign petition for recognition was discussed at the Nordic Grandmasters' council in June. They don't recognise anyone just from looking at UGLE's list, which I think is fair enough.
Still, I think it's an important matter to set to right, and bring the question out in the open. But at the same time the choice of whether to petition or not is obviously that of the individual PH GL.
So, my question is this: would it be possible to somehow reach all the PH GLs and suggest to them that they petition the Nordic countries, both for the sake of strengthening the international bonds, and to basically make the situation known in my own 'hood. Or is this completely off base ...
edit PS: I am reading from the answer I got that none have tried, but I can't be sure. I sincerely hope that's not the case.
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Post by mike on Jan 31, 2006 9:15:59 GMT
This raises two interesting questions (I think). Would the PHA wish to gain recognition? Could a Muslim PH Mason visit your Lodges? M
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Post by munkholt on Jan 31, 2006 9:41:53 GMT
This raises two interesting questions (I think). Would the PHA wish to gain recognition? Yes, that's the thing, exactly. I can think of reasons why it's important to me and FMry in Denmark in general, but it's important to know if they want it or it's really just a vanity project. Yes, absolutely. Actually, no, since he's not recognised, but religion and ethnicity certainly won't keep him outside.
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 31, 2006 10:05:40 GMT
This brings up an interesting question.
Assume one goes to the USA and your host, be he a business colleague or a social friend, is a fellow Freemason and is Black and a member of a PH Lodge. He knows you are also a Freemason and invites you to his Lodge which has a Meeting that week and as is customary in US Lodges there is plenty of spare Regalia at the Temple for you to borrow.
What do you do?
1 Attend the Meeting and Enjoy it, in the True Spirit of Masonic Brotherhood, and thus not risk offending a Friend and Brother.
2 Check up to see if it is on the "Recognised" list and if not make some excuse not to attend and possibly upset him and jeopardise your future relations with him both social and work and even cause him to think you are racist.
I know what my personal Moral Code would tell me to do, but how do others feel about this?
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Post by munkholt on Jan 31, 2006 10:30:32 GMT
Good point, and recognising the PH lodges would make sure that the individual, travelling mason is not put in this dilemma (doing what's correct, or what's right).
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Jan 31, 2006 10:36:44 GMT
I would go.
The same happened in Italy, in my lodge. A colleague from Congo, temporarily working in Italy, was addressed to me by a common friend.
The guy is black and GL of Congo has not yet been recognized by my GL.
I ignored the rule and listened to my heart: we enjoyed many meetings.
When the Spirit blows, the law is silent, said St. Paul, or, better, omnia munda mundis (Jesus, st. Paul's boss)
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Post by gord on Jan 31, 2006 13:25:01 GMT
This brings up an interesting question. Assume one goes to the USA and your host, be he a business colleague or a social friend, is a fellow Freemason and is Black and a member of a PH Lodge. He knows you are also a Freemason and invites you to his Lodge which has a Meeting that week and as is customary in US Lodges there is plenty of spare Regalia at the Temple for you to borrow. What do you do? 1 Attend the Meeting and Enjoy it, in the True Spirit of Masonic Brotherhood, and thus not risk offending a Friend and Brother. 2 Check up to see if it is on the "Recognised" list and if not make some excuse not to attend and possibly upset him and jeopardise your future relations with him both social and work and even cause him to think you are racist. I know what my personal Moral Code would tell me to do, but how do others feel about this? The answer should be simple if you both are Freemasons--you don't go to his lodge if it isn't recognized by yours and he doesn't go to yours if it isn't recognized by his. If you are both Freemasons you will understand this. It has nothing to do with friendship or respect. If he is your friend and if you both feel that your respective Grand Lodges should recognize each other, then the both of you should start working together towards that goal. But you never throw your political views in the face of your brethren of your home Grand Lodge. This is paramount. You, I and everyone here who is part of a fraternity should realize that Freemasonry is bigger than one man's (or woman's) viewpoint. If your idea is a sound one and if it is just, it will over time come to pass. It may take longer than one lifetime and so the individual must realize that they only take a small part in the way of the world. Weight carefully your desicions and see that they don't disgrace yourself or your friends and brethren. At least that's my take on the whole thing. My jurisdiction recognizes PH masonry. But I don't live in the Southern USA. Freemasonry moves slower there because of the mood of the population there. Remember the flooding of New Orleans and what is happening to the displaced black population there now. It is unlikely they will be able to return because for the most part they were renters not home owners. It is a different world there from my home in Vancouver, BC or someone in England, Scotland or Ireland. Sometimes the internet makes us feel we all live in the same neighbourhood.
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Post by ingo on Jan 31, 2006 13:46:06 GMT
Thomas There about more than 200 PH Grand Lodges in the US only. The question is the recognition - recognition by whom?
By UGLoE? By "mainstream", let us say caucasian American GLs?
There are differences, if you consider Grande Loge de France or various brasilian GLs...which are recognized by US Grand Lodges but not by UGLoE...
Or recognition by the so-called "regular" PH GLs? Even the black masons themselves do not recognize every other black freemason...
The world is funny isn't it? ;D
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Post by squirebentley on Jan 31, 2006 14:31:49 GMT
Divinator I disagree with you for a couple of reasons. The most obvious is that many Grand Lodges enter into petty squabbles seeking to perpetuate their own importance. They micro manage minute distinctions for which the average individual Mason has no interest or concern. They are a Bureaucracy and in true bureaucratic mold they are all about rules and regulations and proper form. In a nutshell they go overboard to protect their own interests and proclaim their version of how they see thing to be the "one and only true way".
Bring politics into the picture??? I think not. What we are talking about here is social justice and basic human rights. The issue is not merely political it is also ethical, moral and religious.
Those who critisize we who would do battle with our Grand Lodges on moral grounds preach that we should all just wait and be patient, that the bigots will all soon die off and we will see the reforms we are so vocally screaming about now. I will burst that bubble by telling you that in the USA rascist parents raise racist children and the wrongs go on and on. Was it wrong for Martin Luther King to violate law and seek to integrate public lunch counters, schools and buses? Should he have just voiced his opinion and then accepted what the majority said?
My real problem with all this is that some enterprising journalist will seize upon our difficulties and write a fighteningly narrow expose. I can just see the lead story in Time or Newsweek -- "Freemasons Rascist, Still Fighting Civil War". We need to police our own act before the public at large embarasses and humiliates us. If you think membership is down now, wait until that happens.
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Post by munkholt on Jan 31, 2006 14:33:53 GMT
It is a different world there from my home in Vancouver, BC or someone in England, Scotland or Ireland. Sometimes the internet makes us feel we all live in the same neighbourhood. True. And that's why I'm asking for advice -- my first reaction was to get all fired up and angry about it, but from the GL reply I received, it was quite clear that it hadn't been an issue, either way. It was just something that the Internet had made me aware of as a problem. If the PH GLs aren't interested in DDFO's recognition, it ends there. I won't start a well-meaning but misplaced campaign on their behalf. But it should also be remembered that status quo remains (or deteriorates) if no one takes positive action. It has to start somewhere.
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Post by munkholt on Jan 31, 2006 14:38:00 GMT
There about more than 200 PH Grand Lodges in the US only. The question is the recognition - recognition by whom? By UGLoE? That's where the thought originated, yes: UGLE has 25 PH GLs on their list, and I had the impression that DDFO followed their cue in most such matters, so I was suprised to learn that we couldn't match that. But clearly it's a bit ... complicated.
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Post by a on Jan 31, 2006 15:18:25 GMT
Munkholt
It is actually very very simple.
It is complicated by man.
If you take a physical approach to make distinctions then it can become very complicated - eg male only, christian only, white only. But if you look at the inner person, the essence, then it really is very simple. Freemasonry is after all Universal. You find it in your heart.
But as always I could be wrong.
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Post by mike on Jan 31, 2006 15:56:18 GMT
Thomas There about more than 200 PH Grand Lodges in the US only. The question is the recognition - recognition by whom? Sorry but whoa. Is that a bit of an exageration? The PH Conference of Grand Masters claims that there are 46 Prince Hall Grand Lodges. M
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Post by mike on Jan 31, 2006 16:03:46 GMT
That's where the thought originated, yes: UGLE has 25 PH GLs on their list, and I had the impression that DDFO followed their cue in most such matters, so I was suprised to learn that we couldn't match that. But clearly it's a bit ... complicated. The important thing that you may be missing is, have any PHA GLs approached your GL for recognition. If they haven't there will be no recognition. Despite what some may write, the whole process begins when one GL is desirous of recognition from another, it doesn't just happen. I'm sure that when the situation is sorted in their own back yard they'll expand the boundaries. M
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Post by squirebentley on Jan 31, 2006 16:51:45 GMT
The important thing that you may be missing is, have any PHA GLs approached your GL for recognition.
If they haven't there will be no recognition. Despite what some may write, the whole process begins when one GL is desirous of recognition from another, it doesn't just happen.
Well the truth of the matter is that Prince Hall did ask for recognition from its beginning for many years. In the beginning it asked to be just included into the white Grand Lodge. After awhile Prince Hall gave up. White Freemasonry forced them to be separate and apart. Over time they developed their own sytem because they were forced to and they are very proud of it. Today many Grand Lodges in the USA who have still not recognized Prince Hall demand that PH be absorbed into their Grand Lodge.
But the bottom line in all this is that those Grand Lodges in the USA who are refusing to recognize are doing it because they are anti black, they are rascist. Oh, they will offer you all types of explanations and excuses and conditions why they cannot recognize PH, none of which are overtly rascist. But it is all a smokescreen. 38 states in America have recognized PH and are having no problems with it. Everybody agrees that PH practices regualar Freemasonry.
I do not go along with the approach that if PH has not begged for recognition then there will be no recognition. The way to remain pristine in the fray is for all white Grand Lodges in the USA to unilaterally recognize Prince Hall. Who cares whether PH recognizes back? But now the burden of who has the higher moral ground is on the other foot. Charges of racism disappear. And maybe slowly rapproachment will develop. Does anyone stop to consider that Prince Hall may have hurt feelings and pride over past treatment? Of course those Grand Lodges that would not even consider unilateral recognition remain still suspect as to motive.
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Post by squirebentley on Jan 31, 2006 16:56:41 GMT
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Post by mike on Jan 31, 2006 18:05:58 GMT
Well the truth of the matter is that Prince Hall did ask for recognition from its beginning for many years. In the beginning it asked to be just included into the white Grand Lodge. After awhile Prince Hall gave up. White Freemasonry forced them to be separate and apart. Over time they developed their own sytem because they were forced to and they are very proud of it. Today many Grand Lodges in the USA who have still not recognized Prince Hall demand that PH be absorbed into their Grand Lodge. Now this is a good way to turn people against the PHA perspective, I think you may forgotten that this is an international Forum. Let's be clear on something it isn't white Freemasonry that has kept PH separated, it is American Freemasonry. Try to remember that Africa Lodge's Warrant was issued by the Grand Lodge of England AND that here in England we don't have PHA we have Freemasonry, there is no colour bar. But the bottom line in all this is that those Grand Lodges in the USA who are refusing to recognize are doing it because they are anti black, they are rascist. Oh, they will offer you all types of explanations and excuses and conditions why they cannot recognize PH, none of which are overtly rascist. But it is all a smokescreen. 38 states in America have recognized PH and are having no problems with it. Everybody agrees that PH practices regualar Freemasonry. Can't argue with this, I totally agree. I do not go along with the approach that if PH has not begged for recognition then there will be no recognition. The way to remain pristine in the fray is for all white Grand Lodges in the USA to unilaterally recognize Prince Hall. Who cares whether PH recognizes back? But now the burden of who has the higher moral ground is on the other foot. Charges of racism disappear. And maybe slowly rapproachment will develop. Does anyone stop to consider that Prince Hall may have hurt feelings and pride over past treatment? Of course those Grand Lodges that would not even consider unilateral recognition remain still suspect as to motive. This though, is just plain silly. The rules for Grand Lodge (not PHA but all GLs) recognition are clear a GL wishing to be recognised asks, plain and simple. Prince Hall Masons have very right to feel hurt over their treatment in the US but you must try to remember that things are different elsewhere in the World. We just don't have the colour bar and we don't have Prince Hall GLs because of that. It is all a bit wierd to us, to have two systems that are the same except for the racial ethnicity of their members M
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Post by windtimber on Jan 31, 2006 19:17:29 GMT
Stepping out on a limb, and perhaps sawing it off while I stand there, and perhaps I'm naive and uninformed, but maybe the biggest problem is the proliferation of Grand bodies and hidebound institutional policy.
In another thread I participated a bit in a discussion that we were too overwrought with dignitaries, Grand institutions, formal introductions, and the trappings of organizational politics. Seems the same issue is at work here. Maybe we all need to step up in our Grand Bodies and start the slow and cumbersome process of changing direction. Inbred institutional bias doesn't go away on its own - particularly in Freemasonry where nothing is supposed to change! Consequently, it's the duty of concerned, dare I say enlightened, Brothers to come forward and agitate for institutional change.
My lodge is under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of South Dakota. And NO, that IS NOT in the southern USA. We're almost to Canada. Generally I understand that GLSD "recognizes" Prince Hall. What Prince Hall does it "recognize"? Heck if I know.
Does that matter to me? Not at all.
If a man is black, white, red, or any other color or ethnicity, if he has kneeled at the altar and obligated himself to the substantially the same principles as I have, he is my Masonic Brother. Period.
Vitalizing Freemasonry on the basis of Brother-to-Brother relationships is the beginning. I'm not going to worry about what Grand body recognizes what Grand body. If the Brothers in a local lodge will sit with me, I'll sit with them. If they are stuck on some formal recognition problem, well, my companionship becomes their loss! If I get in trouble with my Grand Lodge because I've sat in a lodge it doesn't recognize...well, I'll deal with that as need be! I believe that Freemasonry is inherently about the individual. Therefore, let's take individual responsibility and, with any luck and over a long time, we can drag the recalcitrant Grand bodies along - or to the devil with them. Either way is fine with me!
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Post by ingo on Jan 31, 2006 19:26:27 GMT
mike there might be 46 "regular" PH Grand Lodges in the US, but there are more than 200 "irregular" ones, too. No exageration at all. ;D
If you need some further informations which GLs exist in which state, just email me.
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Post by gord on Jan 31, 2006 20:53:13 GMT
Divinator I disagree with you for a couple of reasons. The most obvious is that many Grand Lodges enter into petty squabbles seeking to perpetuate their own importance. They micro manage minute distinctions for which the average individual Mason has no interest or concern. They are a Bureaucracy and in true bureaucratic mold they are all about rules and regulations and proper form. In a nutshell they go overboard to protect their own interests and proclaim their version of how they see thing to be the "one and only true way". Bring politics into the picture??? I think not. What we are talking about here is social justice and basic human rights. The issue is not merely political it is also ethical, moral and religious. Those who critisize we who would do battle with our Grand Lodges on moral grounds preach that we should all just wait and be patient, that the bigots will all soon die off and we will see the reforms we are so vocally screaming about now. I will burst that bubble by telling you that in the USA rascist parents raise racist children and the wrongs go on and on. Was it wrong for Martin Luther King to violate law and seek to integrate public lunch counters, schools and buses? Should he have just voiced his opinion and then accepted what the majority said? My real problem with all this is that some enterprising journalist will seize upon our difficulties and write a fighteningly narrow expose. I can just see the lead story in Time or Newsweek -- "Freemasons Rascist, Still Fighting Civil War" . We need to police our own act before the public at large embarasses and humiliates us. If you think membership is down now, wait until that happens. Well your cause is probably just in Texas, but is non-existent in most of the world. Please be specific when you say Grand Lodges do this or that. I for one am proud of my Grand Lodge. It is sad that the feelings you have seem, according to you, to be perpetuated by some men who hold office in your GL. If that is the case then you need to change them. In BC we elect the Grand Line. Do you do that in Texas? As I've said before, I don't live in the Southern USA so there is no real way for me to know what goes on there in Freemasonry except from postings like yours. I know that most Southerners, black and white, are racist; or at least that's the image that I get from the News and these types of posts. To expect the Southern GLs to change this overnight is unreasonable. Certainly losing recognition from other countries wouldn't help. The change must come from within. Not only Freemasonry in the area but from the general public as well. This is a tough question. Do you have a solution for us? I for one would back a constructive solution. But to tell us that racisim exists in the Southern USA is old news.
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