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Post by whistler on Nov 13, 2008 19:22:21 GMT
When each time we take an office in Lodge we bring something new to it. Part of the pleasure in Co-Masonry is that sometimes we have a boy as Master and sometimes a girl. each bring a different essence to the chair. And different it is - Both my Wife and I have been a Master of our Lodge 3 times so I even have domestic experience of the difference. In Lodge it is not a simple case of balance - because that would indicate our Temple is static and I certainly can't see how you could get a gender balance in lodge - our temple is continually growing and as each year rolls past so a different influence and energy is present . I have said many times that Gender in Co-Freemasonry is not an issue and that is true. What is true is that what ever gender an office holder may be makes a difference. To pick up on i've read some stuff that explains the ritual as being originally purposed for males for various reasons; from the vowel sounds of our words requiring the resonant frequencies of the male voice to be truly effective, to the stuff related to the "generative principal" and a number of other items. Very reasonable and understandable questions. On the Generative principle - that doesn't have any effect , when Comason's becomes a 30th Degree Mason they do not wear an apron in lodge - They have mastered the earthly material world and do not need the apron string to remind them of the separation. Even though a Mason may have reached such a lofty heights when working the craft degree they may appear in any office. As to the origin of various ritual being originally proposed for Males - The roots of our ritual reach back to Atlantis and beyond to times when both men and women worked the rituals. To be truly effective - the effectiveness of our ritual depends on the whole - ]
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Post by generatics on Nov 19, 2008 6:12:28 GMT
thanks, whistler. i appreciate your real-world input on this. my goal is to put myself somewhere that will allow me to practice the ritual as effectively as possible, and there are so many factors which may or may not be of influence. i think it's healthy to explore them all. care to share more of your thoughts on the effect gender might play on the role of an officer?
i have found some interesting reads on women in the ancient Egyptian Rites and there is no doubt that they were a part of it, and that is an understatement. any literature you recommend on the subject of ancient ritual?
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Post by maximus on Nov 19, 2008 14:27:16 GMT
i have found some interesting reads on women in the ancient Egyptian Rites and there is no doubt that they were a part of it, and that is an understatement. any literature you recommend on the subject of ancient ritual? If you want real information on ancient Egyptian religion and traditions, I recommend The Sacred Tradition in Ancient Egypt by Rosemary Clark, and it's companion volume The Sacred Magic of Ancient Egypt. Also, The Book of Coming Forth by Day (also known as The Book of the Dead) by E.A. Wallis Budge. The role of women as Priestesses in Egyptian religion was extensive, and these books will give more of a true accounting than any Masonic reinterpretation could. One must keep in mind that Masonic Egyptian-style rites were made up by men who had no clear understanding of the actual beliefs and practices of Khem (Egypt).
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Post by whistler on Nov 19, 2008 21:20:01 GMT
my goal is to put myself somewhere that will allow me to practice the ritual as effectively as possible, I have found the best way to "feel" the ritual is to immerse oneself into the part one is called to play. For a neophyte at their initiation - when they are asked in whom do they put their trust - from that point on they should just rest in the glow of their answer and simply follow the guidance of their guide for the event. Each degree, and every office have unique requirements. for example in our Co-masonic Lodges our Deacons have Rods with Doves on top of them, those Rods also are used to charge the pavement - the Deacons carry Messages- they also represent Mercury and much more - When your are a Deacon and doing the Deacons work - think on all those things that as a Deacon you are doing and represent - for a short time you are know longer Joe Bloggs you are a Deacon. Even when just a Mason in the Columns to imagine and put strength into our Column knowing that by doing so we are assisting in the work of the evening. A Freemason Lodge when it is opened is not a passive thing - there is plenty of work for everyone, on many many levels.
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Post by delux on Nov 23, 2008 21:41:55 GMT
i have found some interesting reads on women in the ancient Egyptian Rites and there is no doubt that they were a part of it, and that is an understatement. any literature you recommend on the subject of ancient ritual? If you want real information on ancient Egyptian religion and traditions, I recommend The Sacred Tradition in Ancient Egypt by Rosemary Clark, and it's companion volume The Sacred Magic of Ancient Egypt. Also, The Book of Coming Forth by Day (also known as The Book of the Dead) by E.A. Wallis Budge. The role of women as Priestesses in Egyptian religion was extensive, and these books will give more of a true accounting than any Masonic reinterpretation could. One must keep in mind that Masonic Egyptian-style rites were made up by men who had no clear understanding of the actual beliefs and practices of Khem (Egypt). Maximus, If I may ask; would you please be so kind as to tell us how you came to this conclusion? Would you be able to reveal the identity of the "men" who "made up" the Egyptian Rites as well as what they did and did not know? I would love to see your detailed conclusions regarding your hands on examination of every Egyptian Rite. If you have indeed published an essay on the subject I would love to read it. Thank You, Lux
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Post by delux on Nov 23, 2008 23:26:44 GMT
Architekt, Thank you, but with all do respect that is all speculation and it deals with only two of the four Egyptian Rites. Thanks, Lux
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Post by maximus on Nov 24, 2008 5:59:56 GMT
If you want real information on ancient Egyptian religion and traditions, I recommend The Sacred Tradition in Ancient Egypt by Rosemary Clark, and it's companion volume The Sacred Magic of Ancient Egypt. Also, The Book of Coming Forth by Day (also known as The Book of the Dead) by E.A. Wallis Budge. The role of women as Priestesses in Egyptian religion was extensive, and these books will give more of a true accounting than any Masonic reinterpretation could. One must keep in mind that Masonic Egyptian-style rites were made up by men who had no clear understanding of the actual beliefs and practices of Khem (Egypt). [qoute]Maximus, If I may ask; would you please be so kind as to tell us how you came to this conclusion? Common sense. Any connection to ancient Khem claimed by Masonic authors of the 18th and 19th centries are so much fantasy. Read the books I have recommended and you will see that Masonic rituals with an Egyptian flavor are not the same as authentic Khemetian religion. If you are asserting that Masonic Egyptian rites are authentic rites from dynastic ancient Khem, I would think it would be on you to prove that they are.
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Post by delux on Nov 24, 2008 6:19:14 GMT
Maximus, Seeing how religion in ancient Egypt was never homogeneous, I don't see how you can make authoritive statements like that. Egyptian religion was always made up of regional cults. It was never a united pantheon like we would see from the Greeks or Romans
The truth is just like allmost all Masonic Rites exact origins are not clear.
Please elaborate on your experience with the Egyptian Rites. I would assume that you feel qualified from a working perspective correct?
Thanks.
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Post by maximus on Nov 24, 2008 6:57:32 GMT
Maximus, Seeing how religion in ancient Egypt was never homogeneous, I don't see how you can make authoritive statements like that. Egyptian religion was always made up of regional cults. It was never a united pantheon like we would see from the Greeks or Romans Of course it wasn't homogeneous. There were four cosmological schools and creation myths, those of Thebes, Hermopolis, Memphis, and Heliopolis. There were ten cosmic families and forty-two Neteru, and forty-two Nome spirits. We know, however, that they had thier origins in the 18th and 19th centuries. The majority of these types of rites came from France, and were not originally part of Antient Craft Masonry. The origins of Masonry can be found in Scotland, which has the oldest lodges and existant records. One does not need to have worked the Egyptian Rites to reserch thier origins, which a simple internet search will readily turn up. Are you asserting that I, or anyone else who has not worked this Rite has no right or reason to either reaerch or speculate about them? From the website of The Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon, one of the premier Masonic websites extant we find the following: The Order of Memphis "Whether or not the Order of Memphis was a masonic body is to some degree a question of perspective. Certainly, to regular and recognized Craft Freemasonry—such as those jurisdictions then recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England and the Grand Orient of France—the Order of Memphis was irregular and clandestine. In other words, it was claiming to be masonic but was not. While all regular and recognized Freemasonry evolved from systems developed in Ireland, Scotland and England, the rituals of the Order of Memphis were loosely inspired by Cagliostro's clandestine Egyptian Rite—which he had invented out of whole cloth as a scheme for exploiting freemasons. The Primitive Rite of Memphis was created by Samuel Honis at Cairo in 1814. Promoted by Gabriel-Mathieu Marconis de Negre in Montauban, France, until 1816, the rite was revived by his son, Jacques-Étienne Marconis de Negre (1795/01/03 - 1868/11/21), commonly known as Marconis, at Paris in 1838. He met with little success and the few lodges he had formed, in Paris, Marseilles and Brussels, were suppressed by the police in 1841. Revived again in 1848, as the Rite of Memphis, perhaps ten lodges were later absorbed into the Grand Orient of France in 1862 and their "higher degrees" recognized but not permitted to be conferred. To the chagrin of the Grand Orient of France, Marconis continued to sell memberships outside France. The United Grand Lodge of England had issued a warning on 24 October I859, advising its members that the Rite of Memphis was an irregular body. The promotion of the later Rite of Misram by Robert Wentworth Little and the attempt to plant the Rite of Memphis in America by Harry J. Seymour were of no political relevance and are not part of this history." From the website of M.E.A.P.R.M.M."The creator of the Egyptian Freemasonry of Egyptian Rite was the Count Alexander of Cagliostro (1749-1796), born in Tunisi. He must not be identified with the mystifier Giuseppe Balsamo (1743-1795), the palermitano recruited by the Jesuits to personify and to throw the disrepute on the true Count of Cagliostro." So, it would seem that the official website of your own organization corroborates what Bro. Architekt posted earlier, and you disputed.
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Post by delux on Nov 24, 2008 7:59:26 GMT
Some recommended books on Egyptian history and religion:
Egypt Before the Pharaohs by Michael Hoffman
Pyramid Odyssey by Alfred Knopf
Egyptian Mythology by Veronica Ions
Isis and Osiris by FC Babbitt
The Conflict of Horus and Seth by J.Gwyn Griffith
Serpent In The Sky: The High Mysteries Of Ancient Egypt by Anthony West
While I dig the GL of BC and Yukon's website a ton, their research on this subject comes up a little short. What it fails to mention is when Joseph Bonaparte was made GM of the GOdF he was an active member of both Memphis and Misraim Rites. The GOdF established a seperate body over all four of the Egyptian Rites that still operates.
The M.E.A.P.R.M.M. website deals only with the Rites of Memphis, Misraim and Memphis-Misraim. It does not deal with the other two Egyptian Rites (Philadelphs and Narbonne) because the Order does not hold any authority over them.
Now, as to speculative Masonry's origins that is a hotley debated topic. When you say that Memphis, Misraim and Memphis-Misraim where not amongst the very oldest of Rite's you would be correct. Neither are Preston-Webb, Emulation, AASR, Pike-AASR or any of the other Rite's that are common or uncommon in North America. I have heard of a independant lodge in Alabama that claims to use original Rite of Claremont but those still would not be 1717 era Rituals. Masonic scholars have searched for those for years with little if zero success.
That really matters little as the Egyptian Rites of Freemasonry are beautiful, powerful and in use all over the world. On every continent excluding Antartica there are lodges and temples who work those Rite's today. I have actually sat in a Narbonne lodge in Cordoba, Argentina.
The Egyptian Rite's might not be everyones cup'o tea. Variety is the spice of life. It is when those Rite's are invalidated that I feel compelled to jump in.
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Post by delux on Nov 25, 2008 22:16:10 GMT
.... The Egyptian Rite's might not be everyones cup'o tea. Variety is the spice of life. It is when those Rite's are invalidated that I feel compelled to jump in. The reason why they are invalidated by Masonic researchers is because all the primary evidence suggests a different background that has no basis in fact. What we have being promulgated here is clever revionism that is being portrayed as fact. Some of course will be misled by that. Do you believe that Preston-Webb has it's "basis" in fact? Was Hiram Abiff a real person?
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Jan 27, 2009 15:27:53 GMT
I love all that pseudo-Egyptian stuff ;D and I really love how Cagliostro (Giuseppe di Balsamo) worked his blarney and bullsh*t like a true sideshow mountebank.
Like maximus, I am only too aware how little of Masonic ideas about Ancient Egypt were ever based in rational reconstruction, much less verifiable fact; but the appeal of the mysterious and wonderful half-glimpsed secrets of that dark land has never ceased to hold me in thrall.
Does anyone, BTW, have a link to the actual text of the Primitive Rite of Memphis & Misraim?
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imakegarb
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One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
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Post by imakegarb on Jan 28, 2009 5:04:49 GMT
I have a pdf copy I downloaded from the Internet some time ago but when I tried to find the link just now, I couldn't find it.
Hmmmmmm.
Well, if no one here has an Internet link, get with me in PM and let's arrange to get this to you.
Bro. Ruff (and anyone else who might know), I heard on another forum that the Bristol Ritual is not the oldest Masonic Ritual still worked. Is that so?
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
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Post by ruffashlar on Mar 9, 2009 15:53:33 GMT
Thanks, Bro. Karen. Actually, just after I posted that, I ran a quick Google search and got this link <http://www.moup.org/Files/Ambelain_Freemasonry-Olden-Times.pdf> It's really quite jolly. I love it when the Internet stops trying to flog you stuff and just imparts Light like Tim Berners-Lee intended! ;D
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Apr 10, 2009 14:03:15 GMT
I heard on another forum that the Bristol Ritual is not the oldest Masonic Ritual still worked. Is that so?
I'm no expert, but this is the kind of thing where a logical mind serves equally well. A synopsis of Bristol Masonic Ritual: The Oldest and Most Unique Craft Ritual Used in England by Charles E. Cohoughlyn-Burroughs [Kessinger Publishing Co; 2004], reveals:- Have you ever heard "the Nile, the Ganges, the Euphrates, [and the] Mississippi" mentioned in an Entered Apprentice degree? How about "the immeasurable wilds of the scattered Indian tribes across the mighty Atlantic...the wandering Arabs, roaming Tartars, or far distant Chinese"? Have you ever seen the "circle of swords," the "cup of affliction" or the "writing test" given to an Entered Apprentice?
Now, on the strength of that content alone, I'd be perfectly willing to wager it was not the oldest Masonic ritual - whether still worked or not worked at all makes little difference, as I doubt it's really very old at all. For how many working men of the 18th Century could do more than write their name - if that? Never mind submit to a "writing test"!
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Post by maximus on Apr 10, 2009 15:15:00 GMT
I heard on another forum that the Bristol Ritual is not the oldest Masonic Ritual still worked. Is that so?I'm no expert, but this is the kind of thing where a logical mind serves equally well. A synopsis of Bristol Masonic Ritual: The Oldest and Most Unique Craft Ritual Used in England by Charles E. Cohoughlyn-Burroughs [Kessinger Publishing Co; 2004], reveals:- Have you ever heard "the Nile, the Ganges, the Euphrates, [and the] Mississippi" mentioned in an Entered Apprentice degree? How about "the immeasurable wilds of the scattered Indian tribes across the mighty Atlantic...the wandering Arabs, roaming Tartars, or far distant Chinese"? Have you ever seen the "circle of swords," the "cup of affliction" or the "writing test" given to an Entered Apprentice?Now, on the strength of that content alone, I'd be perfectly willing to wager it was not the oldest Masonic ritual - whether still worked or not worked at all makes little difference, as I doubt it's really very old at all. For how many working men of the 18th Century could do more than write their name - if that? Never mind submit to a "writing test"! The oldest ritual I am aware of comes from Scotland where, fantastic speculation aside, Freemasonry originates.
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Post by maximus on Apr 10, 2009 18:43:53 GMT
It is very doubtful that Scottish operative Masonry could have influenced English speculative Freemasonry. Our Scottish Brethren would disagree, I think.
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Post by billmcelligott on Apr 10, 2009 18:44:39 GMT
No one knows where Operative Freemasonry started. Let alone if it were England or Scotland.
There are a number of examples though of Scottish Operative Masons travelling across continents in order to complete works. I believe the 'White House' re construct was done by Scottish Masons.
It is however accepted I think by Most Historians, that the Scottish Operative Masonry lasted longer than its English counterpart. Why, ? I hear you ask.
Mostly from the advent of cheap brick production in most of Europe, particularly during the Industrial revolution, where large Factories and Mills were required. you only have to look at the construction styles.
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