|
Post by AndyF on Mar 28, 2009 7:56:59 GMT
I have heard that there are a variety of different rituals worked under UGLE. I was wondering if Grand Lodge regulates this, and if so how? I've had a bit of a look through the UGLE constitutions (at least what they've published on their website anyway), but I couldn't find anything. Is there another document which dictates which rituals may be used, or what requirements must be met by any ritual that is intended to be used?
|
|
|
Post by Siontific on Mar 28, 2009 13:18:31 GMT
I'm not aware that the Ritual under UGLE is defined. I've looked through the Book of Constitutions and can't find anything. There are certainly many variants of the ritual. Emulation seems to be the most used but also Taylors, West End, Logic, Oxford, Universal, York, Bristol and several I can't remember the names of off-hand. Even going to see one specific ritual does not mean that any two Lodges will perform it the same. They often have their own quirks. Even this isn't the end of it. My Lodge uses Emulation with West End Floor work and few of our own interpretations. But this is the beauty of visiting other Lodges. Seeing the interpretations and the additions or different explanations used and mixed in ways you don't use them. Siontific
|
|
afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
|
Post by afterthought on Mar 28, 2009 14:31:58 GMT
I have never heard of West End. Might you be able to elaborate?
|
|
|
Post by AndyF on Mar 28, 2009 14:55:48 GMT
Surely there must be some kind of regulation as to the extent a lodge can customise the ritual? If anyone knows where I can find out the wording of such a regulation I would be most grateful.
|
|
|
Post by Siontific on Mar 29, 2009 11:23:48 GMT
AndyF: In answer to your question - "No idea." It does not seem to be addressed in anything printed that I have seen.
afterthought: I can only refer you to the printed West End Ritual book which states in it's Preface: "West End ritual was probably first published in the 1870's .... It appears to have had it's rise in one or more Lodges of Instruction operating in the Mayfair and Kensington (London UK) areas - hence its name." There is an Association of West Ritual Lodges who seem to monitor those Lodges that perform "pure" West End Ritual. They can be contacted through the Grand Secretary at UGLE. Maybe an enquiry to the Grand Secretary would throw more light on "rules" regarding ritual.
|
|
|
Post by chrispt on Mar 29, 2009 12:52:41 GMT
I recently visited Tyrian Lodge at the Eastbourne Temple in East Sussex,UK. They work primarily emulation. However, since they were consecrated prior to 1717 they have ritual dating far back and if any discrepencies are noticed they are simply explained away by this condition. They also read the minutes from the last meeting and from the same date 200 years ago! They have some fantastic pieces of ritual i have never seen before or since. well worth a visit if you're in the area.
|
|
|
Post by AndyF on Mar 30, 2009 7:18:34 GMT
Thanks everybody for the responses. It makes me wish I lived over there so I could see them all!
So the bottom line is, so long as the lodge isn't in breach of the ancient landmarks, they can do whatever the hell they want in their ritual?
|
|
FireMist
Member
Then rally boys, and hasten on.To meet our Chiefs at the Green Dragon.
Posts: 293
|
Post by FireMist on Mar 30, 2009 15:51:48 GMT
...... They also read the minutes from the last meeting and from the same date 200 years ago! .... That would be cool!
|
|
|
Post by AndyF on Mar 31, 2009 7:17:28 GMT
So the bottom line is, so long as the lodge isn't in breach of the ancient landmarks, they can do whatever the hell they want in their ritual? I would not put it like that at all! Using various rituals for the Craft degrees in England makes it all the more interesting when visiting a lodge that works a ritual different to your own. There are basically only small differences sometimes and you have to listen and pay attention to notice them. Some relate to the floorwork as well. Lodges are expected to adhere to the ritual that their lodge uses. Also in the Provinces (districts) if a new lodge wishes to use a certain ritual it usually needs permission from the Prov.GM. It is when all ritual is standard (as Preston-Webb) as in the USA that visiting then becomes far less interesting. Believe me brother, we are definitely on the same page. What I'm fishing for is the details of the approval process for a new or different ritual. I was aware that UGLE was happy to have lodges work several different rituals, and figured it would be the perfect jurisdiction to find out about how it decides whats in and whats out. Surely there would be some sort of written policy on this? Or is does it simply come down to the gut feeling and reaction of the GM of the day?
|
|
|
Post by AndyF on Apr 8, 2009 6:38:38 GMT
What I'm fishing for is the details of the approval process for a new or different ritual. I was aware that UGLE was happy to have lodges work several different rituals, and figured it would be the perfect jurisdiction to find out about how it decides whats in and whats out. Surely there would be some sort of written policy on this? Or is does it simply come down to the gut feeling and reaction of the GM of the day? Can anyone help me out with this one? Or is this one of those deeply esoteric masonic mysteries I keep hearing about ? ;D
|
|
|
Post by AndyF on Apr 9, 2009 9:24:08 GMT
No - in UGLQ you use the one and only UGLQ approved ritual, or none at all. Although, there are a few exceptions where lodges working older rituals before this rule came in were allowed to continue doing so. Thats why I'm curious how other jurisdictions go about deciding whats an acceptable ritual and whats not.
Is there some rules and guidelines on paper, or is it literaly up to some one in GL's best judgement?
|
|
|
Post by Siontific on Apr 9, 2009 22:07:41 GMT
Not so architekt. You can combine different parts of different rituals. We do in my Lodge (UGLE) as do others that I know. True, it's not often you find it but it happens. As I stated above, we do Emulation with West End floor work.
|
|
afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
|
Post by afterthought on Apr 9, 2009 22:08:43 GMT
The Australia situation seems to be a tough one. It will either be one you can live with or it won't. The good news is that no Masonic organization is the only game in town anymore.
|
|
afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
|
Post by afterthought on Apr 9, 2009 22:12:14 GMT
Not so architekt. You can combine different parts of different rituals. We do in my Lodge (UGLE) as do others that I know. True, it's not often you find it but it happens. As I stated above, we do Emulation with West End floor work. This sounds like a recipe for trouble. The rituals are constructed theway they are for a very specific reason. They are alchemical recipies and once you start adding this, eliminating that or changing things around you ruin the recipe. It is a real shame this is not more clearly understood. For an example in the USA every state has their own edited version of the Preston-Webb ritual but they do not work the unabridged original. Then they wonder why Masons cannot seem to shake of their profane ways.
|
|
|
Post by penfold on Apr 9, 2009 22:57:35 GMT
Seems that there is a lot of confusion about the number of UGLE rituals - it may help to think of them as 'versions' of the same ritual rather than 'different' rituals. the differences maybe small, its not an entire re-write, plus there is quite often minor 'local variations'. Under UGLE afaik a lodge decides the ritual version it will work when it is consecrated
|
|
|
Post by AndyF on Apr 10, 2009 0:19:51 GMT
If UGLQ only approve one ritual for use then that is the situation apart from the exceptions you mention. Perhaps you should take this matter up with them directly. There is no matter to take up with anyone. I was merely wondering what (if any) was the procedure for approving a new or different ritual in other jurisdictions. What my own GL does (or doesn't do as the case may be) has little bearing on my question. To my knowledge there are no rules concerning ritual use in England. Only that one of the existing rituals is used and not a combination of different parts of different rituals. Thank you. So, there is nothing to be found by way of rules that will assist you with this matter within UGLQ. Again, thank you for your answers, but please don't try to make wild assumptions about my motives for asking. I'm a relatively new and extremely curious MM. there is a lot I don't understand that I'm not likely to find answers to in my own jurisdiction. That being the case, thank the GAOTU for this forum!! ;D
|
|
|
Post by corab on Apr 10, 2009 17:30:10 GMT
Amen to that.
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Apr 10, 2009 21:33:45 GMT
I wonder if he checked with the then Grand DC before saying so.
After all the Grand DC would be the Teaching Authority would he not. Or has the Secretary taken over that role ?
I know what the DC in my Lodge would say if I told him what was right and not right.
I can find no place in the BOC which even mentions the word ritual and in the Guidance notes it just says the ritual must be approved by Grand Lodge.
|
|
|
Post by Siontific on Apr 10, 2009 22:11:44 GMT
This sounds like a recipe for trouble. The rituals are constructed theway they are for a very specific reason. They are alchemical recipies and once you start adding this, eliminating that or changing things around you ruin the recipe.
It is a real shame this is not more clearly understood. For an example in the USA every state has their own edited version of the Preston-Webb ritual but they do not work the unabridged original. Then they wonder why Masons cannot seem to shake of their profane ways.
Oh dear. Well, I guess each to his own. But, if the the ritual is so ..... alchemical, why are there so many? It's not the ritual or the words, or the mix, it's the people that count. Open-minded, free-thinking, good people. Methinks you are a cowan, young architekt !!!
|
|
|
Post by AndyF on Apr 10, 2009 22:26:23 GMT
...and in the Guidance notes it just says the ritual must be approved by Grand Lodge. ...and its things like this that had me believing there had to be some sort of approval process for GL to follow.
|
|