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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 9, 2006 10:24:26 GMT
For fear of hijacking the other thread, I start a new staffs.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=General&action=display&thread=1136548442&page=2 reply to : OK it was nothing to do with kindness, these men had an absolute right to be admitted. Who said they had no idea, their ideas may be different from that which you think it should be. but that is not the same as having no idea at all. OK, we have thousands of men all being returned from 7 years of war, each would accept authority as a way of life, each would more or less as he was told by his superior, the superiors governed by consent. as the next generation arrives it is taught not to accept things at face value , it questions it argues, it thinks. Why , because that is why their Fathers fought for 7 years to give their children that Freedom, we then have another generation arriving who have even more freedoms, why , because that is what their Grandfathers fought 7 years for. Not at all , your trying to make out as if these guys were given something that was above them , they were justly entitled. No I never said that, I am trying to explain to you Stewart what the reality is, not what the philosophy is, some things just are. Many , by no means the vast majority of Freemasons go through a ' what now stage'. This happens just after being made a Master Mason and just after coming out of the chair. It is no coincidence that this is the same time as Freemasonry looses 80% of those lost members. In each Lodge their are a limited number of jobs that can be done, and if they are not organized properly some are left out of the general running of a Lodge, these men quite often do all the things you have listed, many do not. Then we get the boredom factor. The beauty of Freemasonry is that it should be most things to most men. The minute you start to try to make every Mason jump through the same hoop, you will start to destroy it. Freemasonry means something different to each Freemason and to those who just wish to turn up for the friendship and the laughs i will have no part in taking that away from them, they are no less important than his Lordship. If his Lordship is the Mason I think he is, he will readily agree with me. What about the vast majority of Masons who are quite content with their lot and do not wish to embark on this venture to capture the meaning of life. If you wish to join Freemasonry and use it as tool to search for enlightenment then no one will stop you, but it does not make you or any like minded Freemason any more important than the simple man who just enjoys his Freemasonry.
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Post by mrmason on Jan 9, 2006 11:31:39 GMT
Again a very full and positive explanation Bill.
I too know several members who are more than content with coming to the lodge, meeting after meeting, sitting on the side lines, or taking a small part in the proceedings, then going to the pub for a few drinks with good friends and then off home. And they return to the lodge each time. They are quite content in their masonry so why should we try and tell everybody to seek for the meaning of life. If I asked that question I know what I would get in reply from many of them, "yep it's on the second row in blockbusters"
Freemasonry is all about what you put in and if some want to put very little in and take very little out, and get satisfaction from that, who are we to knock them.
From my experience of different lodges in different countries, there is nothing wrong with freemasonry. People take it and leave it as they please. Freemasonry means a lot of different things to different people. I am not keen on certain practises that are carried out by lodges under the UGLE,( and Scotland for that matter), but that doesn't mean that I would venture on a crusade to get things changed. Each to their own.
I tend to find that like all heads of organisations they need to be seen to be interested now and again and let the workforce know that their still around. It happens in my job with usless bits of paper with instructions being produced every now and then to let the workforce know whos still in charge. Sad but it does happen. If the Pro GM sat back and said nothing for years would the brehtren think he didn't care?
The whole membership situation is in my opinion blown all out of proportion. If freemasonry needs to cut it's cloth accordingly then it will do so. but it will never die out. And if some members are bored then surely they should be big enough and old enough to stop themselves from being bored. We can't run after everyone and keep wiping their noses.
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Post by mike on Jan 9, 2006 12:34:41 GMT
IMHO 2 very balanced responses.
Which clearly illustrate that truth known to all experienced Freemasons that Freemasonry can truly be all things to all Masons. There is no need for it to try to become one avenue to one result.
M
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Post by a on Jan 9, 2006 15:40:52 GMT
Wow!
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Post by gcoudert on Jan 9, 2006 17:49:48 GMT
Furthermore, let us not forget that not all people, let alone Masons, have the intellectual ability to cope with complex philosophical issues. Does that make them sub-standard Masons? Should they have been left at the West Gate?
I agree with MrMason when he says it's about what you put in it. In fact, many Brothers, including my Proposer, told me - before I joined - that you get out of FM what you put in it. And it can be on different levels.
I too, know many Brethren (especially elderly OAs) who enjoy the company & brotherly love as well as the meetings and the ensuing Festive Boards, no more, no less, and at their age, it's pretty much all they have left. That's fine by me. Others are looking for something on a spiritual level. I respect that. Some even regard FM as an alternative to 'organised Religion'; I have now come to terms with the issue. I'm somewhere between the first two and I'm happy that way. ;D
Gilles
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Post by whistler on Jan 9, 2006 18:17:37 GMT
The Truth is that at the very heart of Freemasonry are very simple teachings. The path that leads to those teachings is different for each person. Stewart doesn't seem to understand this. For Hundreds of Thousands the UGLE provides a perfect pathway to those teachings, Just as all the other different Flavours of Freemasonry provides perfect pathways for others. I know Stewart is not a Freemason, which is why he appears constantly to suggest that the UGLE may not be a perfect for those who happen to belong. Freemasonry is about FREEing the Mind - all minds are different. Freemasonry lets each mind find the place that fits.. Gilles comments I too, know many Brethren (especially elderly OAs) who enjoy the company & brotherly love as well as the meetings and the ensuing Festive Boards, no more, no less, and at their age, it's pretty much all they have left. That's fine by me. Others are looking for something on a spiritual level. I respect that. Some even regard FM as an alternative to 'organised Religion'; I have now come to terms with the issue. Shows nicely Freemasonry at its best. Stewart you like to tell of what you can give Freemasonry - Stewart what to do you think you might get from Freemasonry. From all your comments I am not sure that any Flavour of Freemasonry will work for you.
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Post by a on Jan 9, 2006 19:41:18 GMT
Whistler
To answer your question - what do I think that I might get from Freemasonry. As I have been saying for a year or so, it just feels like I am coming home. Though my home is not as I remember it. This is something which I have, and which I continue to, do a lot of internal work on. I am the first to admit that such a feeling is at first glance - well - unusual. Which is why I have been working from my heart. Perhaps an easy way to explain it at a conceptual level, as I have explained before, it that is a bit like a father and son relationship. I can see that Freemasonry is having difficulties, which have subsequently been confirmed both on forum and off forum by Freemasons, and I would dearly love to see these problems and issues being surmounted. In terms of what I may actually get from Freemasonry, I have already received so much that what else I may receive does not really matter as much. I have for example seen myself, found keys to a number of unanswered questions. Found a great deal of comfort and joy, and indeed answered the meaning of life question. Some of the biggest steps that I have taken have been directly related to Freemasonry.
Anyhow, one of Bills comments has made me pause and think, especially since it came from him. Which is good, for it is important to continually reflect and review. As such I will be chewing on this point for a while, and when I have done the necessary internal work here, I will come back and discuss it. It is rare for me to stop and pause for so long at one specific comment, but Bill has worked some magic here.
Hence while I will be posting on other topics, don't think that I have forgotten this thread, for I haven't, but there is perhaps more going on here than meets the eye, in a subtle sort of way.
Interesting day, I would imagine that a whole heap of growth will come from it.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 9, 2006 21:02:14 GMT
Oooooooooooooooh Giles I have to pick you up on this one!
A Man says "I love my wife".
He may not be able to explain this in a complex and philosophical way. He just loves his wife. He does not need any complications, it just is.
My father was a man of very few words, but as I grow older I realize how much wiser than me he was. Many words do not necessarily make a wise man, just a long winded one. [ Hell brought down by my own analogy]
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 9, 2006 21:05:58 GMT
Whistler, I think that is just about it.
Its us that makes it complicated.
Freemasonry has been around for hundreds of years , some say thousands. It will survive long after we have gone, yet we seem to know what is wrong with it ?
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Post by whistler on Jan 9, 2006 23:49:48 GMT
Whistler, I think that is just about it. Its us that makes it complicated. Freemasonry has been around for hundreds of years , some say thousands. It will survive long after we have gone, yet we seem to know what is wrong with it ? Bill which takes us back to "Me Changing ME' Freemasonry will change us - certainly will change us in a way those interacting with us will see. There is nothing wrong with Freemasonry - it evolves around it's core as the society it serves evolves
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 9, 2006 23:58:35 GMT
We are in complete agreement Whistler.
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Post by a on Jan 10, 2006 7:23:49 GMT
There is nothing wrong with Freemasonry - it evolves around it's core as the society it serves evolves I realise that your egos may be hurt, and that this comment may simply fuel the fire, but internal work is never easy. The evolution that you talk about simply does not appear to have been happening in anything other than a negative way through parts of Freemasonry. Where there should be light there appears to be darkness. If this is a test, fair enough. If this is egos being bashed and reacting, then I would suggest that you are a little blind to a basic part of Freemasonry, and yes I do realise how arrogant that must sound from an UGLE reject that some think will never be admitted anywhere (the point has I think been missed with such thoughts). And I realise that this will hurt and if one is consumed by darkness and could lead to a negative reaction toweards me. If so it just indicates the existance of darkness. However I care sufficiently for Freemasonry to stand up and follow my heart. It may cause me personal grief, but if the end result is that Freemasonry turns the corner, then it is worth it. Whistler, Bill, you are both better people than your posts here would suggest. If I were a betting man I would suggest that there are subtle not so positive energies at work here. Clearly though I could be talking nonsense in my above opinions.
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Post by mike on Jan 10, 2006 8:20:49 GMT
I realise that your egos may be hurt, and that this comment may simply fuel the fire, but internal work is never easy. The evolution that you talk about simply does not appear to have been happening in anything other than a negative way through parts of Freemasonry. Where there should be light there appears to be darkness. I see nothing of ego in the responses that you refer to, all I can see is two very different Freemasons from very different obediences disagreeing with what you have said and you not liking it. If this is a test, fair enough. If this is egos being bashed and reacting, then I would suggest that you are a little blind to a basic part of Freemasonry, and yes I do realise how arrogant that must sound from an UGLE reject that some think will never be admitted anywhere (the point has I think been missed with such thoughts). And I realise that this will hurt and if one is consumed by darkness and could lead to a negative reaction toweards me. If so it just indicates the existance of darkness. I also think that they have shown a perfect grasp of the most important part of Freemasonry "Brotherly Love" which you seem to have missed yourself by trying to pre-empt any future comments that don't agree with you as "attacks". However I care sufficiently for Freemasonry to stand up and follow my heart. It may cause me personal grief, but if the end result is that Freemasonry turns the corner, then it is worth it. Excellent Whistler, Bill, you are both better people than your posts here would suggest. If I were a betting man I would suggest that there are subtle not so positive energies at work here. Their posts are in no way negative toward anyone so you must mean that they are saint-like Clearly though I could be talking nonsense in my above opinions. Even though you may be right no one else has actually tried to belittle your opinions other than you, and that is also very brotherly. M
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Post by a on Jan 10, 2006 8:30:17 GMT
Perhaps I am just going a little mad.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 10, 2006 8:31:32 GMT
Stewart
Bill is another spelling for WIZIWIG , what you see is what you get.
There is no hiden agenda, I have no reason to fool anyone. There is no darkness in my Masonic or Private life.
I am just trying to portray the facts as they are. I would venture to suggest that at least 80% of Freemasons would agree with my wording and portrayal of what happens in Freemasonry on a day by day basis.
Can Freemasonry be improved , yes of course it can. But the core of Freemasonry , when you see it at work is a beutiful thing.
I have seen grown men break down in tears , because they acheived things they thought were impossible for them. I have seen a man who had suffered a stroke and mostly paralysed , open and close a Lodge. I have seen love in a room of men that would never be shown in any other place. But most of all I have felt that odd feeling of belonging, the feeling that someone cares. The feeling of Family.
When I was young I managed to create a fairly wealthy enviroment around me. I purchased my first house at the age of 18. I had people knocking on my door day and night wanting to be my friend.
I was crushed, business wise, in the 1970's when I was about 25. I lost everything. OK so did many, many others. But I had many friends, or so I thought. When I asked all these people for help, all these people that I had given a free ride to, for help. All these people who I had lent money to for help. Nothing?
It took me a couple of weeks but I realised that I was alone, my usefullness to them had gone, I was no longer flavour of the month.
One man and only one stood by me then, and now. He was probably the reason I manged to claw my way back to sanity. And yes he was a Freemason, and yes I joined about a year or so later. Now dont get me wrong my pal would never give you money, hes too tight for that, but he will give you whatever time, encouragement and advice that would be needed. Even now some 30 years later I know I can call this guy in the middle of the night and say, I need help. He will get out of bed and drive to wherever.
The important lesson here is , he knows I would do the same.
WIZIWIG Stewart, that is Freemasonry.
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Post by middlepillar on Jan 10, 2006 9:30:15 GMT
Bill
You have started a great thread here, I think if we keep it going we might actually all come away from it all understanding each others positions/feelings.
I have always said that there is very little wrong with Freemasonry, none more than the other organisations in the world. (What organization isnt sufering from falling membership?). The fact is no matter how many Freemasons you know, no matter what you have been told or what you have read there is only one true way of understanding every aspect of Freemasonry and that is to be in it.
I have always totally respected Stewarts views and some of his ideas are extremely interesting, butnot everyone either is or indeed should be on an individual journey. Why should it be so important anyway as Bill has wisely stated there is far more to the intricacies of being a member than 'The esoteric path'.
My proposer in to Freemasonry was initiated 25 years ago, he joined Chapter 5 years ago and is in nothing else. I know he gets so much out of being a member and gives what he can back, I would never even begin to think I was a better Mason than him. Every single Freemason I know (And believe me I know a substantial amount) is completely different in thier views about what we do, what we should do, what we could do etc, it is that very diversity that make us what we are, where Stewart sees Darkness I believe all it is is oppotunuty, and whether the opportunity is taken or not is irrelevant. Neither is it wrong or 'missed'. It just is.
Bill, thanks for starting the thread, I have had my pennies worth.
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 10, 2006 10:18:05 GMT
Having met Stewart and discussed these matters many times with him I can see the validity of some the points he raises but honestly feel that he is off target in some ways and that he is looking for something in Regular, UGLE, Craft Freemasonry that simply isn't there, hasn't been there since the time of the Duke of Sussex (first UGLE Grand Master) and is unlikely ever to be there.
It would seem to me from Stewart's own postings etc that he is acting on two false premises. Firstly that there is a deep spiritual and mystical dimension to Regular Craft Freemasonry or if there isn't there ought to be, and Secondly that HE somehow has the will and the gift to change it to that ideal.
Sorry Stewart, you are shopping at the wrong emporium as I have tried to tell you many times.
UGLE Craft Freemasonry over the 190 years since the Union of Antients and Moderns has lost its Spiritual aspects and its Speculative side to a great extent and has settled down to Charitable and Social activities. Ritual is performed in many cases to a very high degree of skill and accuracy but for its own sake with few if any considering the deeper aspects of the little plays they act out. However, as I have said many times, to me the REAL Freemasonry lies in the Higher Degrees and it is in these that I take the greater pleasure, especially in the Christian Chivalric Orders.
That having been said, I DO also enjoy Craft and as an illustration last night I attended an Installation at a Craft Lodge near here that I have to say was one of the most happy and enjoyable I have been to in my time in Freemasonry. I did NOT have any profound Spiritual or Mystical experiences, frankly I DIDN'T EXPECT ANY THERE! What I did experience was a group of men from various backgrounds, professions etc joining together with the common aim of enjoying themselves and of making that evening a happy one for the Newly Installed Master and the others who were there, especially Visitors such as myself.
Stewart, such is the nature of English -UGLE- Regular Craft Freemasonry, it does what it says on the box. If you are looking for something deeper then I seriously suggest Co-Masonry for you in one of its branches. That would appear to be to be deeply Mystical from Day One and thus may well satisfy your needs.
Yes, UGLE has its problems, some of its own making, others inflicted by its external detractors, Political and Religious, for their own reasons, but I feel it will survive as it has done for 190 years now and see in its 200th Anniversary in just under 10 years time. It may well have to make changes in its system of Governance and Administration but its key Tenets will remain unchanged.
A VGO once said at a London Installation I attended some years back "We all put different things into Freemasonry and get different returns from it" or if you prefer , it is what you make of it. My "take" on Freemasonry is different to that of Bros Bill, or Lee, or Wayne or Ruff, or MP, or Jules the Bit, or even Stuart Thorpe from another Masonic Forum but we are all bound by being "Brothers of the Mystic Tie".
Stewart, as I have said very many times before, I wish you well and hope you will find Happiness and Satisfaction in one of the Alternative Masonic bodies more suited to your desires and asperations but NOT in UGLE Craft, it is NOT for you nor you for it! As to your offers of "helping" UGLE, you are singing a song, but frankly nobody is listening! To borrow from the Mark Degree, we don't have "An Ear to Hear" or in Latin "Surdo Fabulam Narras"
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 10, 2006 10:29:39 GMT
Perhaps I am just going a little mad?Stewart, it is a wise man indeed who knows that he is mad.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 10, 2006 12:37:48 GMT
Many years ago I watched a sketch on television, it was an Old Lady in the Street. a 'Boy Scout' came up to her and insisted he help her accross the road, the old lady was very confused and protested.
The 'Boy Scout grabbed her by the arm and marched her accross the road. The Boy marched off smiling at what he had achieved, he had done his good deed for the day.
After a few seconds, the scene moves back, you see the Lady talking to a man, he stops the traffic and escorts the old lady back to where she was, she wanted to go shopping in the supermarket on that side of the street.
Lets return to the speech by The Marquess of Northampton , he says, "With nearly 300 years of experience under our belt we must be doing something right, " and that is what we are saying to you Stewart it has to have a basis of excellence in order to have reached the population it has today, whatever that might be. We all agree there was a population explotion in Freemasonry after the last war. Lets assume that it increased by 30% , then we could make the case that we have only lost 10% since the turn of the century.
That can be further supported by his other comment "Our recent losses are often blamed on the fact that we consecrated 1,000 Lodges in the five years following the Second World War to accommodate men returning from active service and wanting to join a fraternity." Thats 1000 x 45 = 4,500 members at least.
The truth is it matters not how many, so long as there are 5 men to hold a Lodge you only need 2 more to make it perfect. Hence the fundamental basics of Freemasonry remain so long as 7 men do meet and agree.
Freemasonry is a tool , you take that tool and make of it what you will. Not for the first time I would disagree with Taylorsman, sit in Lodge with me Stewart and you will see and feel what we have tried to communicate here. Its a bit like dating, at some point you have jump in and ask for a date. You might get rejected, you might get hurt, you might find the Love of your life, but you will never know if you dont ask for that first date.
To quote a friend, and being reminded by Whistler.
Its not about me changing Them, its about ME changing ME.
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Post by gord on Jan 10, 2006 13:13:39 GMT
Having met Stewart and discussed these matters many times with him I can see the validity of some the points he raises but honestly feel that he is off target in some ways and that he is looking for something in Regular, UGLE, Craft Freemasonry that simply isn't there, hasn't been there since the time of the Duke of Sussex (first UGLE Grand Master) and is unlikely ever to be there. It would seem to me from Stewart's own postings etc that he is acting on two false premises. Firstly that there is a deep spiritual and mystical dimension to Regular Craft Freemasonry or if there isn't there ought to be, and Secondly that HE somehow has the will and the gift to change it to that ideal. Sorry Stewart, you are shopping at the wrong emporium as I have tried to tell you many times. UGLE Craft Freemasonry over the 190 years since the Union of Antients and Moderns has lost its Spiritual aspects and its Speculative side to a great extent and has settled down to Charitable and Social activities. Ritual is performed in many cases to a very high degree of skill and accuracy but for its own sake with few if any considering the deeper aspects of the little plays they act out. However, as I have said many times, to me the REAL Freemasonry lies in the Higher Degrees and it is in these that I take the greater pleasure, especially in the Christian Chivalric Orders. That having been said, I DO also enjoy Craft and as an illustration last night I attended an Installation at a Craft Lodge near here that I have to say was one of the most happy and enjoyable I have been to in my time in Freemasonry. I did NOT have any profound Spiritual or Mystical experiences, frankly I DIDN'T EXPECT ANY THERE! What I did experience was a group of men from various backgrounds, professions etc joining together with the common aim of enjoying themselves and of making that evening a happy one for the Newly Installed Master and the others who were there, especially Visitors such as myself. Stewart, such is the nature of English -UGLE- Regular Craft Freemasonry, it does what it says on the box. If you are looking for something deeper then I seriously suggest Co-Masonry for you in one of its branches. That would appear to be to be deeply Mystical from Day One and thus may well satisfy your needs. ... Greetings, Hello to all, and my apologies to Stewart as it isn't to he in particular that this is addressed, rather to all. The openess of this list and some of the associated forums that I've been reading lately has helped me to no end clear away some of the misunderstandings that I've personally had about Freemasonry. As I've said before it is a huge subject and each member can find different avenues of contemplation. This doesn't make any member's understanding correct or incorrect but it does reveal that some might have their own hobby-horses. I certainly have my own. LOL
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