|
Post by magusmasonica on Jun 25, 2009 4:41:34 GMT
One can find information from almost any source or another that will call any Rite "spurious."
Haven't we evolved enough to think with 21st century brains and not continue 19th century bias?
As to everything there is more to the story. Of course Albert Pike didn't like the Egyptian Rite's, he had nothing invested in them. He had everything invested in his own self created version of the AASR.
As with everything else this is simply a case of market share. If you'll notice Bro.Pike waged quite a campaign against Bro.Yarker but Brother Yarker never returned the venom. In fact he spoke quite highly of Bro.Pike and his AASR SJ.
At the end of the day, spurious or not, the Egyptian Rites including Misraim, Memphis and Memphis-Misraim remain as they have always been and they are still worked and enjoyed by thousands of Masons all over the world.
Love and Light,
|
|
|
Post by spn357 on Jun 25, 2009 7:59:24 GMT
May I remind you, Brother Architekt, that while there may not be any "regular" bodies within the United States that practice MM, there are several jurisdictions worldwide, recognized as "regular" by the UGLE and US Grand Lodges, that do. As much as it pains me to say it, I also agree with Brad re: Albert Pike. It seems to me that maybe he felt that MM presented a little too much competition for his Scottish Rite, and so took every opportunity to bad mouth it. I've also read, on another forum as well as the Grand College of Rites website, that the Brothers who held these degrees surrendered the sovereignty of this rite to the GCR, thus causing it to be locked away, never again to be practiced legitimately, at least in the US. You can study the rites through the GCR, but study is never the same as actual practice. Now tell me, what gave these Brothers the right to lock this unique form of our Craft away from future generations? It was awfully presumptive of them, who obviously found some value in these degrees, to prevent future generations from doing the same. Personally, I think the Scottish Rite probably didn't want the competition, but this is just my own opinion. Here's a link to the history of it for those interested: www.grandcollegeofrites.org/history-of-gcr.php
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jun 25, 2009 8:48:54 GMT
May I remind you, Brother Architekt, that while there may not be any "regular" bodies within the United States that practice MM, there are several jurisdictions worldwide, recognized as "regular" by the UGLE and US Grand Lodges, that do. A very misleading thing to say! The United Grand Lodge of England does not recognise any Degrees other than EA, FC, MM and HRA. You can learn about our Recognition rules by visiting here: www.ugle.org.uk/pdf/190308-cr-rule-2007.pdf and going to page XIV. You can also see who we do recognise by visiting here: www.ugle.org.uk/provinces/olodges/olodges.htm In the meantime I'd be quite interested to read which Grand Lodges you think are recognised by us and hold authority for and practise M&M Degrees. Mike
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Jun 25, 2009 9:43:12 GMT
Mike , I wonder if recognise is the right word for HRA, as it has 'Supreme Grand Chapter' which is the governing body. Admitted they are the same people in the similar chairs, but is it not separate from UGLE ?
I am not sure of the answer, it is a question.
We are constantly being told there is no 4th degree in Freemasonry and that HRA is not the completion of the third. I find this hard to take on board. But what do the Office staff at UGLE think ?
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jun 25, 2009 9:55:30 GMT
The Book of Constitutions says:
At the Quarterly Communication of 10 December 2003 the United Grand Lodge of England acknowledged and pronounced the status of the Supreme Order of the Holy Royal Arch to be ‘an extension to, but neither a superior nor a subordinate part of, the Degrees which precede it’.
Mike
|
|
ricardo
Member
Australia
Posts: 161
|
Post by ricardo on Jun 25, 2009 11:09:18 GMT
The Book of Constitutions says: At the Quarterly Communication of 10 December 2003 the United Grand Lodge of England acknowledged and pronounced the status of the Supreme Order of the Holy Royal Arch to be ‘an extension to, but neither a superior nor a subordinate part of, the Degrees which precede it’. Mike In certain jurisdictions much the same is said about the Mark degree S&F
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jun 25, 2009 11:29:39 GMT
In certain jurisdictions much the same is said about the Mark degree (Very) Unfortunately that won't happen in England. Unlike the people sitting in the jobs of SGRAC those in GLMMM are entirely different people from those at the UGLE. Mike
|
|
|
Post by spn357 on Jun 25, 2009 15:14:22 GMT
May I remind you, Brother Architekt, that while there may not be any "regular" bodies within the United States that practice MM, there are several jurisdictions worldwide, recognized as "regular" by the UGLE and US Grand Lodges, that do. A very misleading thing to say! The United Grand Lodge of England does not recognise any Degrees other than EA, FC, MM and HRA. You can learn about our Recognition rules by visiting here: www.ugle.org.uk/pdf/190308-cr-rule-2007.pdf and going to page XIV. You can also see who we do recognise by visiting here: www.ugle.org.uk/provinces/olodges/olodges.htm In the meantime I'd be quite interested to read which Grand Lodges you think are recognised by us and hold authority for and practise M&M Degrees. Mike Yes, yes I understand that whole UGLE recognition thing, however that does not change the fact that several jurisdictions recognized as "regular" practice MM in all its glory. There is a list somewhere, which I cannot find right now. Off the top of my head, I know it includes the National Grand Lodge of Romania, and the Grand Orient of Italy (which is recognized by US jurisdictions but not UGLE).
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jun 25, 2009 16:07:58 GMT
Yes, yes I understand that whole UGLE recognition thing, however that does not change the fact that several jurisdictions recognized as "regular" practice MM in all its glory. There is a list somewhere, which I cannot find right now. Off the top of my head, I know it includes the National Grand Lodge of Romania, and the Grand Orient of Italy (which is recognized by US jurisdictions but not UGLE). Erm, maybe you don't understand as well as you think you do. The National Grand Lodge of Romania does not practise the A&PRMM degrees at all, if it did it would not be recognised by the UGLE. A look at its website will show you that. However its relationship with M&M is probably much the same as any other Grand Lodge's with Appendant Degrees and bodies in that they do not try to prevent their members joining if they so wish. Mike
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Jun 25, 2009 16:14:38 GMT
The Book of Constitutions says: At the Quarterly Communication of 10 December 2003 the United Grand Lodge of England acknowledged and pronounced the status of the Supreme Order of the Holy Royal Arch to be ‘an extension to, but neither a superior nor a subordinate part of, the Degrees which precede it’. Mike See I knew I was right, well I always am, it is acknowledged to be an extension. But seriously , they do get their English grammar in a fix. If it has preceding degrees then it would seem that the HRA is as they say and extension, which implies it is a step further, does it not. I was always taught, when I was a little Mason growing up, it was the completion of the third degree and that made sense to me.
|
|
|
Post by magusmasonica on Jun 25, 2009 17:10:35 GMT
May I remind you, Brother Architekt, that while there may not be any "regular" bodies within the United States that practice MM, there are several jurisdictions worldwide, recognized as "regular" by the UGLE and US Grand Lodges, that do. A very misleading thing to say! The United Grand Lodge of England does not recognise any Degrees other than EA, FC, MM and HRA. You can learn about our Recognition rules by visiting here: www.ugle.org.uk/pdf/190308-cr-rule-2007.pdf and going to page XIV. You can also see who we do recognise by visiting here: www.ugle.org.uk/provinces/olodges/olodges.htm In the meantime I'd be quite interested to read which Grand Lodges you think are recognised by us and hold authority for and practise M&M Degrees. Mike Does the UGLE recognize the Grand Lodge of Argentina? What aboout the Grand Orient of Uraguay?
|
|
|
Post by magusmasonica on Jun 25, 2009 17:16:43 GMT
These lineage conversations are always a little smug.
NOTE: NO Masonic Rite manifested from the Earth. They all basically have the same backstory. I.E. someone made them up. ;D
If someone doesn't like Misraim and Memphis wooo hooo! Good for them. The original article posted here denouncing the Rites as spurious was written long ago and yet the Rites continue so I doubt it's effectiveness.
Love and Light,
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jun 25, 2009 17:50:19 GMT
Does the UGLE recognize the Grand Lodge of Argentina? What aboout the Grand Orient of Uraguay? Next time you should try actually using the tools that I supplied to help you out. We recognise one of the GLs of Argentina (this one: www.masoneria-argentina.org.ar/ ), which one are you thinking of? No we do not recognise the GO of Uraguay, we recognise the Grand Lodge of Uraguay. I'm really sorry but you really will not find an M&M body that the UGLE recognises, in the same way that you wont find a Scottish Rite Body or Allied Masonic Degrees one. If you do it could only be because that body has lied to gain recognition, as the UGLE does not knowingly acknowledge Degrees other than the Craft. Mike
|
|
|
Post by magusmasonica on Jun 25, 2009 18:22:32 GMT
Does the UGLE recognize the Grand Lodge of Argentina? What aboout the Grand Orient of Uraguay? Next time you should try actually using the tools that I supplied to help you out. We recognise one of the GLs of Argentina (this one: www.masoneria-argentina.org.ar/ ), which one are you thinking of? No we do not recognise the GO of Uraguay, we recognise the Grand Lodge of Uraguay. I'm really sorry but you really will not find an M&M body that the UGLE recognises, in the same way that you wont find a Scottish Rite Body or Allied Masonic Degrees one. If you do it could only be because that body has lied to gain recognition, as the UGLE does not knowingly acknowledge Degrees other than the Craft. Mike You do know that the Rites of Misraim, Memphis and Memphis-Misraim do have Craft lodges right? I am in a Rite of Misraim Craft lodge. Love and Light,
|
|
Doc
Member
In vino veritas
Posts: 51
|
Post by Doc on Jun 25, 2009 18:47:56 GMT
By what authority do they confer the three degrees of Craft Masonry?
|
|
|
Post by magusmasonica on Jun 25, 2009 19:07:07 GMT
By what authority do they confer the three degrees of Craft Masonry? By our own authority. Time immemorial. Love and Light,
|
|
|
Post by middlepillar on Jun 25, 2009 21:35:05 GMT
I'm really sorry but you really will not find an M&M body that the UGLE recognises, in the same way that you wont find a Scottish Rite Body or Allied Masonic Degrees one. If you do it could only be because that body has lied to gain recognition, as the UGLE does not knowingly acknowledge Degrees other than the Craft. Mike technically you are not correct here Mike. The GLNF has under its juristiction, French Rite, Scottish Rectified Rite as well as Ancient & Accepted Rite. Thier Grand Lodge meetings (to which I have attended several) are full with members of all these Rites as well as The York Rite Lodges under thier juristiction. (York rite was stopped from operating in UGLE Land due to severe misunderstandings at the time when it tried to get off the ground, and Proscribed!) UGLE recognises GLNF so by default recognises these other rites. In France those members of RER, YR, FR all practice the 3 degrees of that rite, so there is no mistake, it happens. I have also been to a GLNF building which happily holds M & M meetings and allows co-visitation. These are real facts, I have seen for myself. So you can see it is all a load of the preverbial!
|
|
Doc
Member
In vino veritas
Posts: 51
|
Post by Doc on Jun 25, 2009 21:51:32 GMT
By what authority do they confer the three degrees of Craft Masonry? By our own authority. Time immemorial. Interesting. A self-created entity.
|
|
|
Post by magusmasonica on Jun 26, 2009 0:53:36 GMT
By our own authority. Time immemorial. Interesting. A self-created entity. Yep, trace back anything Masonic far back enough and you will find the individuals who decided to create. We are no different in that regard, other than we are new in the game. Love and Light,
|
|
Doc
Member
In vino veritas
Posts: 51
|
Post by Doc on Jun 26, 2009 1:15:21 GMT
Yep, trace back anything Masonic far back enough and you will find the individuals who decided to create. We are no different in that regard, other than we are new in the game. Interesting. New in the game.
|
|