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Post by magusmasonica on Feb 1, 2010 19:58:28 GMT
BOTH hands are left open, which suggests the ambidexterity already offered. A 'left hand path' is limiting and ties one hand, thus crippling the individual. Both hands are necessary, and the selection of just one is imbecilic. No need for anyone to stutter over 'sibilance'. If you are open to suggestion Kevin there are some books that I would suggest you read. From your posts I don't think you understand the subject. Love an Light,
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Post by magusmasonica on Feb 1, 2010 20:22:53 GMT
Kevin, First you should study some Left Hand Path forms of Magickal/religious workings. Vamachara Tantra, Alchemical Taoism and Yzedi traditions would be good places to start.
Secondly I would recommend:
Lords of the Left Hand Path by Dr. Stephen Edred Flowers Uncle Setnakts Essential Guide to the Left Hand Path by Don Webb The Church of Satan by Dr. Michael Aquino Nightside of Eden by Kenneth Grant The Magical Revivial by Kenneth Grant Dark Doctrines by Tani Janstsang Daimonosophy by Sakaki 4
I am pretty sure you have read Ayn Rand as you have mentioned her before.
Good luck, I would like to resume the conversation then.
Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Feb 1, 2010 20:45:46 GMT
Bradford, I've read some of this, and much more similar and related. I don't necessarily agree with all I read, and nobody should just because it is in a book. If I read all of the material you offer you might not like that I still disagree with some of it or that I find it in some sense pedestrian. That is not conducive to a conversation as I often disagree with what I agree with in conversation and vice versa for the sake of discussion-and amusement. ;D So, to make conclusions based on my posts of what I truly think is presumptuous. I could yammer off a listing of books, yet that would seem very much like not deciding for myself if I have to rely on the opinions of others. All that aside, esoteric information carries little weight with me unless backed by a significant amount of verifiable information, and even then it is left to interpretation. I have my 'magic' scars. The largest portion of 'magic' and 'dark' and 'daimons' is offal (and yes, I meant 'offal'). If people wish to pursue it, they are entirely free to do so. I've got an unread Archie Double Digest that will serve me better.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 1, 2010 22:28:16 GMT
Gentlemen, let's keep the personal stuff out of the topic.
Thanks.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Feb 1, 2010 23:02:52 GMT
No problem Leo. I'm just interested in the topic on a more general level.
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Post by magusmasonica on Feb 1, 2010 23:03:59 GMT
Bradford, I've read some of this, and much more similar and related. I don't necessarily agree with all I read, and nobody should just because it is in a book. If I read all of the material you offer you might not like that I still disagree with some of it or that I find it in some sense pedestrian. That is not conducive to a conversation as I often disagree with what I agree with in conversation and vice versa for the sake of discussion-and amusement. ;D So, to make conclusions based on my posts of what I truly think is presumptuous. I could yammer off a listing of books, yet that would seem very much like not deciding for myself if I have to rely on the opinions of others. All that aside, esoteric information carries little weight with me unless backed by a significant amount of verifiable information, and even then it is left to interpretation. I have my 'magic' scars. The largest portion of 'magic' and 'dark' and 'daimons' is offal (and yes, I meant 'offal'). If people wish to pursue it, they are entirely free to do so. I've got an unread Archie Double Digest that will serve me better. Then why comment on a thread like this? If it is no use to you then it isn't it is that simple? No need to try to bait people into discussions that you personally could care less about IMHO. I don't care for numerology, nope not at all. that being said I don't comment on any of those discussions because my own feelings against it leave me so biased as not to be able to constructively contribute. For some this may have been a fruitful and serious conversation. I resent the fact that you threw your hat in the ring just to "muck up the waters." If in the future you have your mind made up don't participate. This forum thrives on conversation by those who are actually and sincerely interested in the topics. Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Feb 1, 2010 23:14:29 GMT
Bradford, I've read some of this, and much more similar and related. I don't necessarily agree with all I read, and nobody should just because it is in a book. If I read all of the material you offer you might not like that I still disagree with some of it or that I find it in some sense pedestrian. That is not conducive to a conversation as I often disagree with what I agree with in conversation and vice versa for the sake of discussion-and amusement. ;D So, to make conclusions based on my posts of what I truly think is presumptuous. I could yammer off a listing of books, yet that would seem very much like not deciding for myself if I have to rely on the opinions of others. All that aside, esoteric information carries little weight with me unless backed by a significant amount of verifiable information, and even then it is left to interpretation. I have my 'magic' scars. The largest portion of 'magic' and 'dark' and 'daimons' is offal (and yes, I meant 'offal'). If people wish to pursue it, they are entirely free to do so. I've got an unread Archie Double Digest that will serve me better. Then why comment on a thread like this? If it is no use to you then it isn't it is that simple? No need to try to bait people into discussions that you personally could care less about IMHO. I don't care for numerology, nope not at all. that being said I don't comment on any of those discussions because my own feelings against it leave me so biased as not to be able to constructively contribute. For some this may have been a fruitful and serious conversation. I resent the fact that you threw your hat in the ring just to "muck up the waters." If in the future you have your mind made up don't participate. This forum thrives on conversation by those who are actually and sincerely interested in the topics. Love and Light, It is useful to get all sides of the issue, is it not? Even, or in my opinion (IMO) most especially those you disagree with? Yes, I know that the LHP is entwined with 'magic', yet it is not just magic, and I do not see 'magic' as the largest part of its meaning. Yes, I think, and listen again but more closely, the LARGEST PORTION of magic is bunko. That does not mean I DISMISS all 'magic' out-of-hand. The LHP is sometimes Magic, but it is not a synonym.
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Post by magusmasonica on Feb 2, 2010 0:33:59 GMT
Then why comment on a thread like this? If it is no use to you then it isn't it is that simple? No need to try to bait people into discussions that you personally could care less about IMHO. I don't care for numerology, nope not at all. that being said I don't comment on any of those discussions because my own feelings against it leave me so biased as not to be able to constructively contribute. For some this may have been a fruitful and serious conversation. I resent the fact that you threw your hat in the ring just to "muck up the waters." If in the future you have your mind made up don't participate. This forum thrives on conversation by those who are actually and sincerely interested in the topics. Love and Light, It is useful to get all sides of the issue, is it not? Even, or in my opinion (IMO) most especially you disagree with? Yes, I know that the LHP is entwined with 'magic', yet it is not just magic, and I do not see 'magic' as the largest part of its meaning. Yes, I think, and listen again but more closely, the LARGEST PORTION of magic is bunko. That does not mean I DISMISS all 'magic' out-of-hand. The LHP is sometimes Magic, but it is not a synonym. If I thought something was "bunko" I know I would not comment to those who thought it was serious. IMHO that is insincere at most but probably would just be taunting and cruel. I know that I have no interest in speaking to the profane on magickal topics. So you masquerading as someone with interest offends me. I know now not to respond to any of your posts. Where a Mason learns to receive joy out of taunting others is beyond me. Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Feb 2, 2010 0:42:06 GMT
I told Leo I would not make this personal, so I refrain from comment.
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Tamrin
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Nosce te ipsum
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Post by Tamrin on Feb 2, 2010 0:59:05 GMT
... the LARGEST PORTION of magic is bunko. That does not mean I DISMISS all 'magic' out-of-hand. The LHP is sometimes Magic, but it is not a synonym. Well said. Magic is very real: But it is both much less and much more than one will find in any teen-age wanna-be witch's grimoire and certainly is not synonymous with LHP.
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Post by magusmasonica on Feb 2, 2010 1:22:13 GMT
... the LARGEST PORTION of magic is bunko. That does not mean I DISMISS all 'magic' out-of-hand. The LHP is sometimes Magic, but it is not a synonym. Well said. Magic is very real: But it is both much less and much more than one will find in any teen-age wanna-be witch's grimoire and certainly is not synonymous with LHP. No one ever said all magic was synonymous with the LHP, ever. Certainly not in this thread. Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Feb 2, 2010 5:34:24 GMT
... the LARGEST PORTION of magic is bunko. That does not mean I DISMISS all 'magic' out-of-hand. The LHP is sometimes Magic, but it is not a synonym. Well said. Magic is very real: But it is both much less and much more than one will find in any teen-age wanna-be witch's grimoire and certainly is not synonymous with LHP. That's it exactly. This thread is about LHP/RHP. Magic is a sideline of that topic at best. A branch but not the trunk or root.
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Post by happyzealot on Feb 2, 2010 7:19:44 GMT
Magic is very real: But it is both much less and much more than one will find in any teen-age wanna-be witch's grimoire and certainly is not synonymous with LHP. Damn. And I thought it was all Harry Potter and Charmed. Sigh. Guess I'll just hang up my athame and pour another beer. Back to the topic at 'hand': what makes one 'path' superior to another?
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Post by magusmasonica on Feb 2, 2010 7:45:56 GMT
[/quote] Back to the topic at 'hand': what makes one 'path' superior to another?[/quote]
Honestly, nothing. Just depends on what suits you as a person.
Chances are if you are into submission to a higher deity in hope to become one with the "all" chances are you are a RHP type of person.
If you are into individual sovereignty to become the all chances are you are a LHP person.
No one is better or worse than the other, just different.
Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Feb 2, 2010 16:15:01 GMT
According to physics, submission to the physical laws of the universe is a given. Becoming one with the "all" of the physical universe is a given. Individual sovereignty is submitted to the laws of the universe and there is not a thing the individual can do to break those laws. Body and mind fails us all eventually, and eventually we fail ourselves depending on our outlook. To say "become the all chances are you are a LHP person" is pretty much what the Army says; 'be all that you can be'. Individual sovereignty can lead one to submit to anything as long as the submission is freely chosen. Many choose to submit to a Deity freely, so it is in that case a left-hand decision. There are many ways to look at the concept of God, and not all include submission. So what makes on path superior? It is up to the individual to decide. If you make careful and honest search you cannot go wrong. Forget the arbitrary and dogmatic designations, and never be satisfied that you are right and complete. The journey IS the destination.
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on Feb 19, 2010 18:02:18 GMT
I don't know if this discussion has had any bearing upon the matter, but recently the Wikipedia page quoted at this topic's head has altered significantly in its definition:-
The terms Left-Hand Path and Right-Hand Path are a dichotomy between two opposing philosophies found in the Western Esoteric Tradition, which itself covers various groups involved in the occult and ceremonial magic. In some definitions, the Left-Hand Path is equated with malicious Black Magic and the Right-Hand Path with benign White Magic. Other occultists have criticised this definition, believing that the Left-Right dichotomy refers merely to different kinds of working, and does not necessarily connotate good or bad magical actions.
In more recent definitions, which base themselves on the terms' origins amongst Indian Tantra, the Right-Hand Path, or RHP, is seen as a definition for those magical groups which follow specific ethical codes and adopt social convention, whilst the Left-Hand Path adopts the opposite attitude, espousing the breaking of taboo and the abandoning of set morality. Some contemproary occultists have stressed that both paths can be followed by a magical practitioner, as essentially they have the same goals.
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on Feb 19, 2010 18:14:59 GMT
Changes in Magical theory, reflecting changes in the Magical population itself, have rendered polar opposites problematic, if not actually useless. Cogently argued, there are persuasive factors to favour treading either Path; to treading both simultaneously; or even to dispensing with the analogy altogether.
However, I feel certain the meaning that was originally intended to be taken from the image of Left- and Right-Hand Paths is still capable of being understood in any system: the former works toward not merely selfish but literally evil ends; and the latter, though perhaps annoyingly high-minded, at least does not intend to cause harm.
The obvious image that springs to the modern mind is J K Rowling's invention of bright Diagon Alley and the dubious street which takes a left off it, Knockturn Alley. Which is not to say that everyone who shops there necessarily intends evil - for as Hagrid says, you just can't get flesh-eating slug repellent anywhere else ;D
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Feb 20, 2010 5:52:11 GMT
Changes in Magical theory, reflecting changes in the Magical population itself, have rendered polar opposites problematic, if not actually useless. Cogently argued, there are persuasive factors to favour treading either Path; to treading both simultaneously; or even to dispensing with the analogy altogether. However, I feel certain the meaning that was originally intended to be taken from the image of Left- and Right-Hand Paths is still capable of being understood in any system: the former works toward not merely selfish but literally evil ends; and the latter, though perhaps annoyingly high-minded, at least does not intend to cause harm. The obvious image that springs to the modern mind is J K Rowling's invention of bright Diagon Alley and the dubious street which takes a left off it, Knockturn Alley. Which is not to say that everyone who shops there necessarily intends evil - for as Hagrid says, you just can't get flesh-eating slug repellent anywhere else ;D This makes the most sense to me. These designations seem to have no clearly-defined meaning, and thus are limiting. Either side can lead to wrongheadedness and damage to self and others. A careful examination leads to a 'third hand', much as the thought of a 'third eye' is prevalent in mystic thought. Great post!
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on Feb 26, 2010 18:00:58 GMT
Thankyou most graciously
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Post by greyskiesblackgod on Mar 27, 2010 1:27:56 GMT
One hand washes the other both wash the face, perhaps the middle path is the more intelligent path. You will never attain the power of the right hand or the knowledge of the left, so. Self gratification and greed are counter productive, that's why often the attainment of pow or know can often be painstaking if not hilarious in extraction, it is your underlying jealousy contempt and rudeness that requires your humility. Ask the clouds for answers
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