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Post by mattjtayl on Apr 20, 2010 17:40:54 GMT
The only reason I still go to this church is because of my good friend of mine loves the church and is a mason in the church, I would of left a long time ago otherwise because of their blatant hatred for masonic lodges.
In the church I belong to there about four of us who are masons. The church has repeatedly said they are vehemently against the masonic lodge, but don't throw members of the church out who are masons. I know from observing the other masons not to even bring the topic up in church or if I sense the conversation is going a direction I don't want it to go to make efforts to control the conversation so masonry never comes up. Members of the church have made one masonic friend of mine, who is very good friends with the pastor, extremely guilty and like he is a bad person just because he is a mason. They tell him his soul is in grave danger and all this baloney, I hope they are not getting to him.
My girlfriend, who is very religious, contacted the church anonymously and asked them if they thought it was ok for her to marry a mason who was a member of their church. The church told her they would fear for her soul and salvation. She would be committing mortal sin according to them.
I also feel I have been getting a harassment of unwanted church visits because I am mason in their church. Basically whenever I don't show up the church will show up and visit me despite being told by me that I would prefer they either don't come or at least call me and ask me if it would be ok to visit me. Unannounced visits are rude, impolite, and harassing. The heads of the church are fully aware that I am a mason because I told them when I joined and I frequently wear masonic lapel pins and/or masonic rings. They claim this is what they do with every church member who does not come to church on Sunday. I beg to differ though they seem to be singling out me and this is like the 9th time they have done this. I just am not home when they visit and it is their own punishment for not being polite and asking to visit me first. I really do think that I am being picked on because I am a mason in the church and I think the hidden agenda here is to drive me out of the church.
Have any other masons experienced harassment by churches and what did you do to stop it?
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Apr 20, 2010 18:03:28 GMT
I know of one church in town where I understand through hearsay that the minister does not like Masons. One of the lodges is largely comprised of members from said church. My good friend is a staunch Catholic. Again through hearsay, some have told me he does not like the Masons. We have not engaged the conversation, so I do not know. I know several members who belong to the K.C. as well as the Masons, as I also know many Catholic Masons. Other than those matters, I have not been in the situation described. Not belonging to a group that expresses displeasure and/or paranoia concerning the Masons I can offer little further advice on the matter.
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Post by lauderdale on Apr 20, 2010 19:08:47 GMT
Find another Church where there is no antipathy towards Freemasonry, that's exactly what I would do! There are plenty of Churches but there is one God and I don't suppose it matters to The Deity if one is on the Square, in the KC or the Girl Guides as long as one is a Good Person who lives by the Light they have been given and acts fairly towards their neighbour.
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Post by billmcelligott on Apr 20, 2010 21:19:17 GMT
I have a really easy answer to this problem, just practice outside the Lodge those things you learn inside it.
Respect for other people, their opinions and how they act must not colour how you act. You show by example what you are, you neither crave attention or expect more from others than they are prepared to give.
Perhaps a quick burst of Kipling is called for.
IF you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise: If you can dream - and not make dreams your master; If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same; If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breathe a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, ' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch, if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, If all men count with you, but none too much; If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds' worth of distance run, Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Mason, my son!
[sorry I cheated on the last line - but I am sure Kipling will forgive me]
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Post by windtimber on Apr 21, 2010 2:24:30 GMT
This issue always amazes me...my pastor signed my petition to join the lodge! We got him his 50 year pin not too long ago.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Apr 21, 2010 14:55:54 GMT
Yes. We have an Episcopalian minister going through the degrees right now simultaneous with a follower of Native American religion. It's weird that this type of attitude continues. As far as I'm concerned, people should have the right to hate Masons or any other group. I dislike when they start attempting to constrain individual rights In this case, the church and minister have the right to voice their opinion, and those that disagree have the right to voice theirs. To paraphrase Voltaire; 'I do not agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.' Unless you can reason with them and get them to change their opinions, leaving is always an option.
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ruffashlar
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Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
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Post by ruffashlar on Apr 22, 2010 15:15:59 GMT
Contact legal representation and get them to send a "Cease and Desist" letter or whatever it's called where you are. That way they'll know you aren't kidding and that if they do it again you'll get the MeeMaws onto them.
They call themselves a church, but really they're just bullies. And what do we do with bullies? We Don't Give An Inch!!!
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Apr 22, 2010 15:33:02 GMT
A "Cease and Desist" order might work, but might come into conflict with Freedom of Speech. I concur that bullies should not be given an inch. I do think they can spout off in their own buildings to the rafters and should be allowed to do so. 'Sticks and stones'. All they will ultimately injure is themselves. It's when they begin infringing on the rights of others that they have crossed out of Free Speech. Give 'em enough rope an' all that. IF they are doing something illegal or condoning violence against Masons it may be legally actionable. I suggest getting in touch with Americans United for Separation of Church and State if you wish to see what might be possible to pursue further.
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Post by billpearl on Apr 27, 2010 4:54:02 GMT
Leave
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Post by humbleseeker1 on Apr 27, 2010 11:53:54 GMT
It is ashame. Its ironic I was introduced to Masonry through a brother in Christ at church. Many churches are very ignorant of what Masonry is all about.
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Apr 27, 2010 11:59:50 GMT
It would be interesting to find a good constitutional scholar and get his/her opinion. Ive often thought that "Mason bashing" treads a very fine line between free speech and hate speech, the latter of course not being covered under the first amendment.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Apr 27, 2010 12:40:22 GMT
I do think that hate speech is guaranteed by the constitution, much as I despise hateful talk. Hateful ACTION is a different matter. I heard a lawyer prosecuting a White Supremacist say, 'This is America. We have the right to hate. We do not have the right to hurt.' I think a good constitutional scholar would agree. We know that groups who hate are guaranteed the right to assemble, etc. I do not agree with what these groups have to say, 'but I will defend to the death their right to say it.' to paraphrase Voltaire. I think if we allow government to make decisions on what speech is disallowed, then they can decide what is considered a 'hate speech.' In many instances, public gatherings become heated over all kinds of issues. People throw the word 'hate' back and forth like candy at a pep rally. Who is to decide what is hateful and inappropriate speech? I don't think the government should be controllers of conscience.
If you strike someone or treat them unfairly in legal matters, that should not be allowed. In the workplace or school, an authority figure must not speak hatefully to those in a subordinate position because the two are not on equal ground. So, in that case, hate speech is prohibited.
In a church setting where you are free to leave and to disagree, the individual is not subordinate to anyone in the church. If this is not the case, there is a larger issue than simple 'hate speech.'
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on Apr 28, 2010 19:48:19 GMT
'but I will defend to the death their right to say it.'
Me too. Their deaths.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on May 9, 2010 21:46:39 GMT
'but I will defend to the death their right to say it.'Me too. Their deaths. While I understand the sentiment, I think that if you allow fools to talk, the inevitable down fall will be from their own words. Hopefully, they will come around and see there is a better way. The prohibition of speech has proven time and again to be the wrong way to approach it. It's very tempting to make devils out of hate groups, but often there is a reason for it. Understanding can often help eliminate those reasons. The Civil Rights movement, in my opinion, did not make much progress through violence. Of course, I might be too nice of a guy. Just last night, two ladies at a Masonic dinner said they couldn't imagine me and the word 'mean' going together. Just a softie, I guess.
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Post by azmason on May 11, 2010 3:04:15 GMT
A Brother (and personal friend) in our lodge quit a short time back . He was at a Knights of Columbus meeting wearing his Masonic ring . He was told in no uncertain terms that a Mason is not going to be given Last Rites by any priest . He claimed that he researched it and found it to be true . Being buried in a Catholic cemetary with his family was more important to him so he bailed out . I did some research and The Vatican reversed a 1980's ruling allowing Catholics to be Masons . I know the Holy See and The Knights Templar have "history" but so does the Catholic Church and The Jews in Spain (The Spanish Inquisition) but that is all water under the bridge . If there is anything that I as a mere EA can seem to see it is in a bit of verbage . The conflict between "Thou shalt not worship any other ... etc" and the term Worshipful Master . Things don't always mean what they sound like . We have the letter "G" to signify GOD . Perhaps another person believes in a Supreme Being whose name begins with another letter . If that letter is "D" we could think Devil . Perhaps "L" , well then Lucifer comes to mind not to mention that this word can be construed as the planet Venus also . It seems that large institutions will come to the most comfortable not to mention self serving conclusions given the opportunity . As a youngster I remember a story about what we would call a "primitive person" . When he prepared his food he would carve out a rough face on a small log or tree branch . Before eating he bowed down and prayed to this "idol" if you will . He thanked his "God" for this meal . I would have to think that this fella was a lot more worshipful that the Pharassee in the parable . It is amazing how some will fight when their power and money are threatened .
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on May 11, 2010 4:51:22 GMT
Yeah, I personally think it's weird what the Catholic and other fundamentalist issues with Freemasonry are. I know some brothers who belong to the K.C. as well, and they are good Masons. Just as I know many Catholic Masons. Still, there is a right to their opinions. Unless they are using fraudulent means to take advantage or infringing on individual rights, they should be able to do as they wish.
You are correct about the animistic worship of trees and idols, although I think it is dangerous place a ton of presuppositions on this individual and his relationship with the tree. Animism does not necessarily denote a worship of the object of worship, just as G does not only denote a single definition. It also denotes Geometry and another set of words that are not explained in the lectures of Freemasonry, yet is there intrinsically.
Animism is likely one of the oldest type of worship, having been around way before any number with B.C. behind it. That does not make creations made after the B.C. era necessarily any more valid.
Certainly, L could signify Lucifer, yet to interpret Lucifer as the Devil is a well-known creation, partly through Jerome, who did not make the attribution. He only made an analogy. 'D' could just as easily denote Diety or Deus, and 'L' could denote Lord or Lucidity. We could use all sorts of letters, yet Freemasonry on the whole does not. The 'G' is used, with good reasons quite hidden in history and the mysteries. Some things are simply not mysteries at all. That someone would protect their assets if they felt them threatened is not much of a mystery at all.
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