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Post by maat on Feb 1, 2012 1:49:26 GMT
... I'm not a betting woman, but... 2012 is a year of changes (isn't every year). That which does not grow, dies. It is on the ether that you might all be quite surprised re this subject, and a lot sooner than you think. (That cat actually looks like you ricardo, cute! )
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Feb 3, 2012 0:04:52 GMT
... I'm not a betting woman, but... 2012 is a year of changes (isn't every year). So 2012 will be a year like any other!? Good bet. I'm looking forward to changes this year.
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Post by interceptor on Feb 8, 2012 1:35:32 GMT
imo... you can tell a mason by the way they act. (which should be ONE THE LEVEL btw) Recognition is all about territorial wars or sex discrimination so far as I can see. Sex discrimination will fall first, for monetary purposes... territorial wars will prevail for quite a while longer. sorry what?
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Post by maat on Feb 29, 2012 2:12:36 GMT
Money talks... when the numbers drop to critical level male only Orders will finally decide to allow women in. Lions International and Rotary came to this conclusion decades ago - they allowed women in and are doing very well. Both were started by Freemasons btw.
Territorial wars will take longer.... if they join them, they won't join us, and if they won't join us we won't talk to them. Boils down to jealously really. Which is not brotherly.
If they all bit the bullet I think they would find that a Bro might quite like to be in both Orders and like to visit lots of others. Freemasonry and what it stands for would thrive on the diverse 'feeding matter'.
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Post by maat on Feb 29, 2012 2:22:58 GMT
... I'm not a betting woman, but... 2012 is a year of changes (isn't every year). So 2012 will be a year like any other!? Good bet. I'm looking forward to changes this year. I was actually saying that it will be a year of changes and a few more than we have been used to, but it will not be the end of the world. btw... last year I said that Qld and NSW would have a repeat of the 2011 flood disasters. How dry are your feet right now? The prediction (by a UK Scientist famed for his correct forecasts in the past) is based on the relationship of Solar Activity and the Earths core. this raises the core temperature which heats up the oceans of the world, which changes the weather patterns, which brings on COLDER weather than is usual. Did you have a colder winter than is usual in the Northern Hemisphere? My home town has had 6 months of windy weather. This is MOST unusual.
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Post by maat on Feb 29, 2012 2:23:39 GMT
Did you know that the only way an iceberg can grow is if the ocean temperature is raised?
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Post by halcyonlodge on Feb 29, 2012 3:39:50 GMT
Very warm winter here with little snow. The lake didn't have ice until mid January. Very weird weather.
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Post by jackson on Feb 29, 2012 7:18:32 GMT
Irishmason; since when were the rules for recognition written down with the express intention of discrimination or prejudice? Now maybe I'm wrong, but isn't it true that some of the masonic leaders convened in Geneva, Switzerland a very long time ago and agreed to seven basic principles for recognizing a lodge as masonic?
I don't recall the reason why but I think the reason was to preserve the uniqueness and unity of Freemasonry as there were other lodges springing up and placing an over-emphasis on the mystical aspect of Freemasonry, not to mention the creative license they would take with some of the rituals (as in some lodges, they made you ride a goat for one of the rituals!)
What do you think?
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Post by jackson on Feb 29, 2012 7:20:02 GMT
Lol I sorry; I meant that question for maat not irishmason (although I would like to hear your views on the subject too along with everyone else's.)
8)
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Post by halcyonlodge on Feb 29, 2012 19:22:23 GMT
Irishmason; since when were the rules for recognition written down with the express intention of discrimination or prejudice? Now maybe I'm wrong, but isn't it true that some of the masonic leaders convened in Geneva, Switzerland a very long time ago and agreed to seven basic principles for recognizing a lodge as masonic? I don't recall the reason why but I think the reason was to preserve the uniqueness and unity of Freemasonry as there were other lodges springing up and placing an over-emphasis on the mystical aspect of Freemasonry, not to mention the creative license they would take with some of the rituals (as in some lodges, they made you ride a goat for one of the rituals!) What do you think? From the research I've done the concept of recognition and territorial exclusivity came about due to many different factors. In some cases it was due to differences in ideology while in others it was based on the international politics of the day. One of the most famous of theses issues was the dispute benween the UGLE and GOdF. In public the UGLE claimed they were derecognizing the UGLE over ideological differences but this was only a part of the larger political picture. The UGLE was under pressure from the government of the UK to distance themselves from France due to the Suez dispute. The Americans did not get involved in this issue for another 30 years. During WWI and WWII the recognition issue was temporarily resolved due to wartime alliances. When recognition becomes combined with territorial exclusivity the matter becomes one of race and cash flow, especially in the USA. The American Grand Lodges did not want to recognize Prince Hall because it was a pprimarily Afican American organization and they used territorial exclusivity to claim that Prince Hall was clandestine. This is still the claim of many southern Grand Lodges to this day. Recognition has also been used as a financial tool in an attempt to create Masonic monopolies. The Grand Lodges claimed they were the only legitimate form of Masonry and for a short period got the government and the courts to agree, thereby wiping out all competition. This was eventually overruled in later court decisions when it was determined that Grand Lodges operate in the same way as Unions. They are a collection of local organizations that join together for mutual benefit. Thus, from a legal perspective, no Grand Lodge could legally claim exclusivity because it violated anti-trust and laws governing inter-state commerce. In Europe the courts of the European Union have already heard cases about the recognition issue and have determined that the Grand Lodges do not have the authority to bar their members from joining with other Masonic organizations not recognized by them, as this violates the rights of the people to assemble and to engage in freedom of assocaition. In short, the days of recognition having any real meaning are numbered. I hope this helps give the mile-high perspective on the questions being asked.
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Harmony
Member
The Craft ; 1241 & 1386 & 1706 (Hon) (SC). OSM - Polnoon Castle Conclave. HRA - Rockmount & Camphi
Posts: 337
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Post by Harmony on Mar 1, 2012 14:28:28 GMT
In Europe the courts of the European Union have already heard cases about the recognition issue and have determined that the Grand Lodges do not have the authority to bar their members from joining with other Masonic organizations not recognized by them, as this violates the rights of the people to assemble and to engage in freedom of assocaition. Have they? I'm genuinely interested in this. Have you got a link to the ruling, as I have never heard of it.
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 1, 2012 16:30:16 GMT
Well you have to be careful in the wording on this subject.
No one can ban you from joining any other group, what they can do is take away your membership of their group. This authority being given by the democratic process within that said group / organisation.
For example most Unions / Professions and official bodies such as Doctors , Nurses , Teachers have rules which if broken can result in membership being removed. It would seem unthinkable that a rule would only apply to Freemasons.
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Post by halcyonlodge on Mar 1, 2012 17:21:42 GMT
One case in France and another in Germany. Unfortunately, I did not keep the links to the news articles. At issue was whether or not it could be considered an "offense" by one organization if you took up membership in another. It was determined that no organization could create rules barring people from membership and association with another because it was a violation of basic human rights, and resulted in the unjust segregation of people. Regardless of the rulings, Freemasons should rise above their petty squabbles and lead the way to finding ways to renew friendships and bring people together. Fraternally speaking, it's not so much a case of legalities but of our moral obligation to one another and society as a whole. I hate for this to come across sounding overly legalistic with high sentenced ethical rhetoric, but we, as Freemasons, need to come to a point where we recognize and accept the flaws in some of our thinking and evolve to meet the challenges of modern civil society. This shouldn't be a cause of heated argument but one of serious and mindful debate leading to positive action. www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjJN08uqt70It should be apparent by now that the most heated arguments had among Freemasons revolves around this issue. It is an issue that has divided us for far too long a time. It was used against Prince Hall in America, and against the GOdF in France, and against women globally. How long will it take before we learn to love and accept one another and become accepting of our differences? The day we do that one simple thing, is the day we take a monumental leap forward as an organization. Instead finding reasons to separate people, we discover reasons to bring them together.
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Harmony
Member
The Craft ; 1241 & 1386 & 1706 (Hon) (SC). OSM - Polnoon Castle Conclave. HRA - Rockmount & Camphi
Posts: 337
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Post by Harmony on Mar 1, 2012 18:12:40 GMT
One case in France and another in Germany. OK - I see where my confusion was coming from. When you said European Union courts, I thought you were referring to the European Court of Human Rights, or the European Court of Justice. What you seem to be referring to is decisions of a domestic court, which I cannot remember being reported (which doesn't mean they didn't happen). A very different thing, and one which would not affect (for example) the UK. An ECJ ruling however would affect the UK. Do you know where you heard this, as my google searching isn't throwing anything up, and I would have thought something of this magnitude would have been widely reported.
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Post by halcyonlodge on Mar 1, 2012 18:19:15 GMT
It was a few years ago and I seem to remember it being at the federal (EU) level. It showed up on my radar because it involved "Freemasonry" and my daily Google Alerts. The article said something like "Freemason Sues Over Human Rights Violations." In the article they mentioned another case in either France or Germany. Here is what I found on Google today: "GLNF loses suit re: Association A member of the Grand Lodge of France sued over the Grand Lodges apparently restrict his rights of association." from dmdj.kofu33.org/bblog.htmlUnfortunately, this doesn't link to the whole article. :-(
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 1, 2012 21:20:11 GMT
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Post by halcyonlodge on Mar 1, 2012 21:43:47 GMT
Glad to see the Freemasons prevailed on that one. Very scary. BIG BROTHER
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Post by maat on Mar 2, 2012 3:53:24 GMT
btw... last year I said that Qld and NSW would have a repeat of the 2011 flood disasters. How dry are your feet right now? LOL. I'd say that was a pretty safe prediction. Both El Niño and La Niña events tend to persist. We are used to the effects of the weather systems you mention, but we are not used to this sort of flood. The picture is real. Tamrin may be able to remember how many lost their lives when Queensland (bigger than most countries) was flooded.
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Post by maat on Mar 2, 2012 4:09:03 GMT
I don't recall the reason why but I think the reason was to preserve the uniqueness and unity of Freemasonry as there were other lodges springing up and placing an over-emphasis on the mystical aspect of Freemasonry, not to mention the creative license they would take with some of the rituals (as in some lodges, they made you ride a goat for one of the rituals!) What do you think? I am not much interested in the traditional history of UGLE Freemasonry. Freemasonry clearly existed before UGLE because the Grand Lodge consisted of a collection of lodges. Some of the Freemasons of those times were practicing alchemists, which was punishable by death in those days. Something which Isaac Newton (and others) was acutely aware of. One can well imagine that with things as they were then, they would have to be careful who they allowed into their ranks. Their lives would have depended upon due caution. In truth one cannot over emphasize 'the mystica'l part of Freemasonry, it is the only thing that explains all the s...s, g...., t.... completely and satisfactorily. All the symbols and allegories of Freemasonry tell a grand tale of the 'descent' of spirit into physical form and then its 'ascent' back again. When one applies the tools in a practical manner, one will experience this for oneself. One step at a time.
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Post by maat on Mar 2, 2012 4:18:08 GMT
Jackson, here is something which may throw a little light on the topic (and much more).. Viewed as part of the "Jewish Conspiracy" Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, Martinism, and other kabalistic-hermetic or esoteric organizations were the special target of these crackdowns, led by "Einsatzgruppen Rosenburg" and the Ahnenerbe. Not since the Inquisition had Western esoteric, initiatic, and cabalistic-hermetic groups especially, been so violently suppressed with such singleness of purpose. The role call of martyrs included many of the leaders of the most prominent magical and mystical movements of the period. The egotistical rivalries that separated them and kept the Light from unifying, was skillfully and brutally used against them by Darkness. The faggots burned again in Europe, this time with smoke stacks. hermetic.com/stavish/essays/kabbalah-hermetic.html
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