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Post by boreades on Jan 21, 2012 18:31:04 GMT
If UGLE has withdrawn recognition of The GLNF, does that mean there is no recognised "Regular" Grand Lodge in France, or is it all in limbo, "pending enquiries"?
A couple of months ago I mentioned to the Secretary of my Lodge that I was visiting a Masonic friend in France. My Secretary was quite concerned that I had to make sure my friend belonged to a Regular Lodge.
As it happens, my friend was master of an English lodge, he just happens to be retired and living in France.
I don't know what the consequences would have been had I inadvertently visited an irregular lodge. Would I be commiting an actual offence, would I be shunned by my brothers or what?
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Post by irishmason on Jan 21, 2012 21:02:44 GMT
At what level do we find masonry, there are masons all over the world, London decides who is a Mason and who is not, we all were initiated and we all work different, what kind of intolerance and hostility, are so called irregular masons contageous? Do they have some sort of disease? My GAOU, what a world.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 22, 2012 1:56:12 GMT
Technically visiting a Lodge not recognised is a misdemeanor. It is an internal matter for UGLE , I have never heard of an incident where a member of UGLE has been sanctioned for making a mistake. Knowing you are visiting an unrecognised Lodge would be a more serious matter. However there are very few times when severe sanctions are used such as withdrawal of membership.
London does not decide who is a Mason, it just decides what its own organisation does and has no power over any other Grand Lodge.
Lets look at what UGLE says about UGLE - 1] The United Grand Lodge of England (UGLE) is the governing body of Freemasonry in England, Wales and the Channel Islands.
2] Freemasonry exists throughout the world. However, each Grand Lodge is sovereign and independent. There is no international governing body for Freemasonry.
3] from Grand masters speech European masters - We firmly believe that it is not Freemasonry but the individual who can have a positive influence on society. We see Freemasonry as an intensely personal journey of self-discovery, knowledge and personal development. We hope that the individual, during his journey, will absorb the principles and tenets of Freemasonry,
4] same speech - Recognition is a bi-lateral act between two sovereign powers. It is not, however, a “right of regularity”, but a privilege.
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Post by irishmason on Jan 22, 2012 10:58:34 GMT
Nice words. Unfortunately the reality is different and off course UGLE is not to blame for it, but the individual mason, lodge, PGL or GL. What they did to brethren who are not regular in their eyes and how masons were treated who had a close connection to brethren under a "non-regular" GL would fill books. Sad storries.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 22, 2012 12:53:05 GMT
In fact at the European Forum of Grand Lodge's UGLE was accused of abdicating its role as the Mother of Freemasonry, an accusation that was countered by the Grand master on the grounds that Freemasonry was free to all and should not be dictated by any one Grand Lodge.
This is going off topic a bit, but as the forum has been very quiet I think we can allow this for a day.
This question of recognition is but just one rampart if the defense of Freemasonry as an institution. I hear the call for total Freemasonry, for each individual to have the right to establish his or her own Lodge and run it as they see fit. but as far as I can see it would just not work.
Under this theory I could establish the 'Grand Lodge of Thieves' and expect recognition from all other Grand Lodges. Now you may not agree or like the recognition rules but what do you put in its place. When is a Lodge an accepted Lodge and who decides what is or what is not acceptable.
The easiest job anyone can do is blame the other Guy.
Answer me this question then, who is acceptable to you or your Lodge. Would my Lodge of Thieves be accepted so long as we had a Master , Wardens etc ? Where is the line drawn ?
What would you say if I opened a new Lodge a street away from your Lodge and told everyone your Lodge was no good, come and join my Lodge ?
I can remember when the Grand Lodge of the USA was established, I was shown the constitution long before it was published, in all areas it looked to be a Genuine attempt to correct some faults that were seen in American Freemasonry. You would have to ask US Masons if it had any impact on those issues raised at that time. It had no chance of being accepted by the mainstream Grand Lodges but that was known all along. The remnants are now the Grand Orient of the USA. Again you would have to ask US Masons if the Grand Orient has had an impact on American Freemasonry.
The other question is does the establishment of New Grand or Local Lodges do more harm than good ?
There are members here that were involved. They may wish to comment.
If any Freemason treats another man or woman, Freemason or not, with contempt or dishonour it is the duty of every Freemason to call a halt to that behavior.
NB. Objection to original terms noted, I changed the wording so as not to offend anyone, I hope.
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Post by irishmason on Jan 22, 2012 22:47:38 GMT
Great revelation to put irregular lodges or GL on the same level as Thieves, that is where we are now. Freudian slip....
edited to make sense and remove nasty wording and I consider the fruedien slip comment to be accusing me of being such, do not continue on this attack mode. Moderator
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Post by peteprint1 on Jan 23, 2012 2:00:08 GMT
Irishmason,
I was once a member of the GOUSA, followed by the George Washington Union. I am now a member of the International Masonic Order Delphi. I have discovered that it is best to just work at masonry and not worry about recognition and irregularity, it's not worth the fighting. Groups like Delphi, GWU, LDH, and many others go about their business and don't lose any sleep about who recognizes whom.
The GOUSA made the mistake of "getting into it" with the regular Grand Lodges from the beginning (which I, regrettably, bought into at the time as well). It is not worth the conflict, and such fighting is not really masonic behavior. It is counter-productive.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 23, 2012 4:38:49 GMT
Peterprint1 is absolutely right irishmason, your so full of hate your not listening to a perfectly valid explanation of the why and wherefore.
GOUSA downfall in my humble opinion was they did exactly what you are doing now.
The original concepts of GLoUSA were plausible and in line with mainstream Freemasonry general premise. GOUSA was formed with an attachment to GO of France which I believe is now withdrawn.
You wish to continually attack mainstream Freemasonry and ask why they do not want to recognise your GL. It is to say the least illogical.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 23, 2012 4:44:54 GMT
I have split this off so as not to interfere with the French connection thread.
However if the subject is not discussed in a reasonable manner I will remove it.
Its up to you Guys if you want it to remain, but argument just for the sake of blowing off steam is not the job of this forum.
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Post by seekeroftruth on Jan 24, 2012 15:33:13 GMT
@ Boreades:
UGLE has suspended relations with the GLNF. Technically, the way I understand things, the GLNF is still the recognised regular GL in France, even though visiting GLNF lodges is now frozen, as recognition has not been withdrawn.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 24, 2012 16:06:43 GMT
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Harmony
Member
The Craft ; 1241 & 1386 & 1706 (Hon) (SC). OSM - Polnoon Castle Conclave. HRA - Rockmount & Camphi
Posts: 337
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Post by Harmony on Jan 24, 2012 19:49:45 GMT
Nice words. Unfortunately the reality is different and off course UGLE is not to blame for it, but the individual mason, lodge, PGL or GL. What they did to brethren who are not regular in their eyes and how masons were treated who had a close connection to brethren under a "non-regular" GL would fill books. Sad storries. I thought that the earlier thread on "recognition" had left this in an harmonious place. It appears I was wrong.
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Post by halcyonlodge on Jan 27, 2012 17:14:11 GMT
The importance of recognition is relative to the goals of the lodge. Our lodge is focused on local community involvement and maintaining our beautiful Masonic temple. When we were a part of the Grand Lodge of Ohio we were presented with one obstacle after another by the GL.
Now we are a part of the Grand Orient USA and unrecognized by the mainstream but have made more progress towards our goals than we had in the previous 30 years.
From our perspective our lodge is more important than recognition but others may have different needs and goals that are better achieved through the recognition system. Every important decision begins by questioning what is important to the members of your lodge.
Peter makes a valid point by demonstrating that he began in the GOUSA then transferred to the GWU and is now a member in Delphi. As he learned about Freemasonry and the many organizations he began to realize what was most important to him as a Mason. This is the beauty of having multiple choices. It gives each Mason and lodge the ability to choose what best suits their unique needs.
Finding the right path for the individual Mason or lodge is oftentimes a matter of trial and error. The Grand Orient USA went through four Constitutional Conventions before a document that was agreeable to the members and lodges was finally created. The changes are an evolution of the system that reflect a better understanding of how the system needed to work in order to benefit everyone involved.
Freemasonry is going through a period of change and unrest but this shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing. It's merely a part of growth and change. Some organizations will grow and thrive while others will die. This isn't new, it's been happening for over 300 years and will continue to happen so long as any form of Freemasonry survives.
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Post by peteprint1 on Jan 27, 2012 21:12:29 GMT
Very well stated. As can be seen by the numerous jurisdictions represented on the Masonic Forum of Light, there are many options for those seeking involvement in Freemasonry. I am happy now with my current situation where there are no bad feelings between our obedience and any others. The fighting (which I admit I was involved in as well) served no worthwhile purpose and detracted from the work. It is easy to get caught up in the politics; I am glad that is all behind me now. I sincerely hope that Irish Mason comes to the same realization as well.
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Post by irishmason on Jan 29, 2012 14:25:57 GMT
billmcelligott: I am not full of hatred as you wrote in your message, I just do not understand that in a brotherhood as ours, brethren are divided into regular and irregular persons. We are all masons and have been initiated. A good old friend from the GL of British Freemasons in Germany wrote me a few days ago:.." they seem to forget that once we committed ourselves and took the relvant oaths we shall always remain as a brother, they can NOT take that away from you, wether you perform ritual in designated places or not, we are still Freemasons". Quote Billmcelligott: You wish to continually attack mainstream Freemasonry and ask why they do not want to recognise your GL. It is to say the least illogical. Unquote I am not attacking mainstream (?) Freemasonry. Yesterday evening at a Robert Burns Night organised by our lodge in Cork and the local Rotary Club I met old friends from GL of Ireland, PGL of Munster, Cork, our friendship and brotherly joy to meet again could not have been greater, I am not attacking, I only mention facts. AND ! we are not looking to be recognised by GL of Ireland, England etc, they cannot do that, which I understand, we were recognised by a number of Grand Orients among them first and foremost the Grand Orient de France. And that is as it should be. But I want to have the opportunity to visit ALL lodges. Our lodge welcomes all brothers and sisters. I am still visiting "regular" lodges on my trips to the continent and a good number of lodges told me clearly" our door is always open for you" I find this very masonic and this flexibility should be practised everywhere. That is my point. All know that I am not advertising our system nor try to convert people, I just want to sit in lodge with my friends and brothers. Last year I visited a lodge and the Deputy Grand Master was present, he knew where I am coming from, we did not mention the topic, sat in lodge (i wore my old irish regalia) and we sat together at the festive board in fraternal unity. I like the different traditions and rituals and I want to have the opportunity to enjoy it in the future. Fortunatelly some lodges have no problem with my attendance and that is good so.
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Post by halcyonlodge on Jan 29, 2012 15:36:56 GMT
IrishMason,
A Mason is a Mason, and a brother a brother, regardless of petty political disputes between organizations. Your statement "" they seem to forget that once we committed ourselves and took the relevant oaths we shall always remain as a brother, they can NOT take that away from you, wether you perform ritual in designated places or not, we are still Freemasons" is right on the mark.
The real and meaningful spirit of brotherhood among individuals cannot be forced or denied by any organization, it is built between people. The term "brother" is too easily tossed about by Freemasons. So much so that it loses the implied value associated with it. Few Masons would honor their obligations to one another, especially if it inconvenienced them to do so. A brother is one whom you can trust to stick with you through the best and worst of times.
It's important to realize that Freemasonry is merely a fraternity that hopes to build brotherhood among people, but no oath or obligation can guarantee that it becomes a reality. Freemasonry represents an ideal that is difficult to achieve even under the best of circumstances.
Many Masons fall victim to the ideal, and when it fails them, they fall back to the rules of the fraternity in a desperate attempt to salvage their hopes and dreams in the ideal. Unfortunately, quoting litigious rules to one another acts only to destroy whatever level of brotherhood might have been otherwise achieved. Sadly, this has become the status quo.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 29, 2012 16:24:56 GMT
irishmason I split this off to cover the technical issue that always seems to rise up, recognition ! What I read in your words I accept may be miles away from what is meant. Words are powerful and we need to guard others and ourselves from the miss representation of them. My biggest fault is that I always believe that I am right. This is because 99% of the time I am. The world is as the world is, I would like to be rich and famous, maybe we will achieve our aims at the same time. My point is that I have absolutely no animosity against GOI or any other Grand Orient / Grand Lodge, it is my belief that each time someone mentions the non recognition issue it reinforces the argument that some have against recognition status, it is counter productive. Plus in real terms , it does not matter. I honestly believe that each Mason should get on with making his or her Freemasonry the best it can be and completely ignore this waste of effort issue.
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Post by halcyonlodge on Jan 29, 2012 21:14:09 GMT
The recognition game is like nuclear war: the only way to win is not to play.
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ricardo
Member
Australia
Posts: 161
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Post by ricardo on Jan 30, 2012 9:20:02 GMT
(hoping it will make you smile too) F&F R
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Post by maat on Jan 30, 2012 23:59:04 GMT
imo... you can tell a mason by the way they act. (which should be ONE THE LEVEL btw)
Recognition is all about territorial wars or sex discrimination so far as I can see. Sex discrimination will fall first, for monetary purposes... territorial wars will prevail for quite a while longer.
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