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Post by cheyham on Jul 12, 2006 10:16:11 GMT
There has been considerable discussion recently about the role, necessity etc for the office of Steward with various and sometimes intense, views put forward.
I was reading (a "translation" of) the Regius Manuscript of c1390 AD last evening where it says:
As the Regius seems to be widely accepted as being the oldest known Masonic document in poetic form it strikes me that the author had very clear ideas that being a steward was a great leveler and that every FM should take their turn. It's a bit like saying to the Initiate before his ceremony - "don't worry everyone ion the room has been through it themselves".
Now some will say "that's hardly 21st century attitude" but seeing as how society in general chips away at tradition at every opportunity I wonder if we do FM a disservice by wanting to change such as this which could be described as one of the basics. Oh yes don't get me wrong changes ARE most certainly needed in certain areas but in others I really don't know.
Interested in views on this when taken from a slightly different angle.
Cheers
C
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Post by taylorsman on Jul 12, 2006 10:49:52 GMT
Now here I am complaining about outmoded Victorian and Edwardian attitudes and we have a reference back to 1390 , over 7 centuries ago! Now what did we have then? Ordinary people were almost the possessions of their feudal Lords, absolute Monarchs, a mighty Church with the power to damn any dissenter and have them burned for Heresy and their property seized, superstition, lack of knowledge, a life expectancy for the ordinary "man in the field" of 40 or so if he were lucky. I would hope that we have advanced not only in knowledge but socially in these 716 years since the Regus Poem was written, and stand by my oft posted remarks that for men to be made to serve wine at a meal when there are either paid waiting staff already serving the food, or where Brethern may well prefer to buy their own drink and serve themselves and their guests, is an anachronism. In my Mother Lodge the Stewards did not serve wine, you bought your own and served yourself and in others at that Centre the waitresses did so where it was inclusive of the dining cost. If I were ever again to be WM of another UGLE Craft Lodge, not a likely event, I would ask that in my year in the Chair the Stewards be left in peace to enjoy their meal and that the waiting staff serve the wine if included in the dining costl.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jul 12, 2006 11:17:19 GMT
Maybe we are just a bit rough in Essex, I can't honestly remember attending a Lodge where there were no Stewards serving the wine. I did not look down upon those that do serve, as I dont look down on a waiter or waitress.
I remember when I first served wine at a festive board, I thought it was my duty to be subserviant, so as I poured the wine I asked "Sir! what would you like, Red or White?" I came upon this rather distingiushed elderly gent, a Grand Lodge Officer with one of those RAF mostaches. I ask " Sir , what would you like" he stood up and said, " Never call me Sir, I had enough of that in the dam War, I am your Brother, and don't bloody forget it". He then sat down, stunned I continued with my task, leaving out the 'Sir' bit. A while later a tap on my shoulder made me turn, there was the RAF Grand Lodge Officer with a bottle of wine, " looks like you need topping up Brother" he said.
Humility is a wonderful thing.
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Post by cheyham on Jul 12, 2006 17:24:48 GMT
Mmmm. TM I think you missed the point a bit.
Cheers
C
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Post by gord on Jul 12, 2006 17:57:59 GMT
There has been considerable discussion recently about the role, necessity etc for the office of Steward with various and sometimes intense, views put forward. I was reading (a "translation" of) the Regius Manuscript of c1390 AD last evening where it says:
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Post by cheyham on Jul 12, 2006 18:19:34 GMT
I suggest that you reread the passage. Nowhere there does it say that anyone should serve the others for a year or years on end but that each should take their turn 'week to week'.: "Week after week without doubt, Stewards to be so all in turn about, Amiably to serve each one other," If lodges changed the stewards each meeting, or if some of the peacocks that sit in the East waited on the EAs then I'd say, yes this is what freemasonry is about. But to give each new member a gradient that they have to 'work' through is nothing short of milirary thinking, not masonry. I suggest you rethink the first part of your answer. Where did I suggest that anyone should serve the others for a year or years on? Nowhere. Nor, if we are being pedantic, does the piece say week to week it says week after week which is not quite the same thing. But you have put your finger right on the button in the latter part of your answer as indeed has Bill in his earlier post as well. I'm asking if viewing the office of Steward from a slightly different position (ie as in this piece) puts a different complexion on previous discussions. I think it does and I think you do too. Cheers C
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
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Post by giovanni on Jul 12, 2006 19:01:33 GMT
I don't know much about your rituals, nevertheless I read the Poem as an exhortation not to be haughty but humble, like Jesus who washed his disciples' feet.
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Post by cheyham on Jul 12, 2006 19:57:02 GMT
I don't know much about your rituals, nevertheless I read the Poem as an exhortation not to be haughty but humble, like Jesus who washed his disciples' feet. Gio Your including the word ritual here is very interesting because my researches (nowehere near complete) are suggesting that Table Lodges are actually conducted in a very ritualistic way. But that's a different subject. Anyway I'm in complete agreement with your assessment. Cheers C
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giovanni
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odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Jul 12, 2006 20:12:52 GMT
I don't know much about your rituals, nevertheless I read the Poem as an exhortation not to be haughty but humble, like Jesus who washed his disciples' feet. Gio Your including the word ritual here is very interesting because my researches (nowehere near complete) are suggesting that Table Lodges are actually conducted in a very ritualistic way... C In fact, Cheyham, we have an ad hoc ritual for Table Lodge
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Post by Mikepm on Jul 12, 2006 22:36:00 GMT
Cheyham a interesting post i can see your point. About Serving wine who cares who does it as long as the glass is topped up (Hic) Stewards roles go further nowadays than just pouring wine, re at installation what does the WM SAY, .............. about learning the various offices and standing in.....
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staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Jul 12, 2006 22:38:54 GMT
I suggest that you reread the passage. Nowhere there does it say that anyone should serve the others for a year or years on end but that each should take their turn 'week to week'.: "Week after week without doubt, Stewards to be so all in turn about, Amiably to serve each one other," If lodges changed the stewards each meeting, or if some of the peacocks that sit in the East waited on the EAs then I'd say, yes this is what freemasonry is about. But to give each new member a gradient that they have to 'work' through is nothing short of milirary thinking, not masonry. I suggest you rethink the first part of your answer. Where did I suggest that anyone should serve the others for a year or years on? Nowhere. Nor, if we are being pedantic, does the piece say week to week it says week after week which is not quite the same thing. But you have put your finger right on the button in the latter part of your answer as indeed has Bill in his earlier post as well. I'm asking if viewing the office of Steward from a slightly different position (ie as in this piece) puts a different complexion on previous discussions. I think it does and I think you do too. Cheers C Meeeeow !!! toys back in the pram now please brethren and gentlemen !!!
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Post by cheyham on Jul 12, 2006 23:11:42 GMT
Meeeeow !!! toys back in the pram now please brethren and gentlemen !!! Sounds like you are calling time! Candidate for Steward then Lee? Could I have a large saucer of milk before you close the bar then purrrrleeeease? Cheers C
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staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Jul 12, 2006 23:39:09 GMT
Meeeeow !!! toys back in the pram now please brethren and gentlemen !!! Sounds like you are calling time! Candidate for Steward then Lee? Could I have a large saucer of milk before you close the bar then purrrrleeeease? Cheers C If The milk turns sour im not the kind of pussy to drink it............know what i mean ??
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Post by rbartlett on Jul 13, 2006 6:15:38 GMT
Now here I am complaining about outmoded Victorian and Edwardian attitudes and we have a reference back to 1390 , over 7 centuries ago! The Romans had more than one word for "Man" in Latin. The word for someone who was simply a male person was "Homo", that for a real "Man" was VIR, hence "virile" etc. To me Zidane merits the title VIR. Infamy infamy -they've all got it infamy !! ;D S&F Richard
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Post by billmcelligott on Jul 13, 2006 8:43:57 GMT
Oooooooooh , No, don't muck about ;D
Kenneth Williams, comic genius but a very sad man.
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Post by cheyham on Jul 13, 2006 9:19:02 GMT
Bill you said earlier that Humility is a wonderful thing.
Lets not forget that part of the Address To The Brethren (in UGLE ritual anyway) where we are told at evey Installation meeting that:
I'm sort of surprised that that haven't been more thoughts/reflections put forward yet but then again I suppose it is the holiday season.
Cheers
C
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Post by cheyham on Jul 13, 2006 22:37:26 GMT
Oh well then - obviously not!
Cheers
C
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Post by billmcelligott on Jul 14, 2006 7:26:11 GMT
I have to say that sometimes I wonder if I am the only person that actually listens to the ritual.
As you say cheham , at every Installation meeting we hear that humility is an essential qualification. We also find out that some rule and teach , and yet others submit and obey.
Does thia mean we have to be servants , certainly not. But it does not portray a situation where the meanial tasks are always done by others.
The address to the Stewards clearly asks them to furnish the tables and see to the needs of the Members and guests. But it is often forgotten that they should assist the other officers in the performance of their duties.
I have always taken this to be a lesson in humilty.
Within the same Charge we are told that the principles attached to the Rule and the Square , teach us to be meek, humble and resigned.
But then again only us esoterics would be able to figure that out.
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Post by a on Jul 14, 2006 10:12:49 GMT
Bill help a poor fellow traveller here. I have trouble with this word. It seems to imply that one should not seek to improve, to grow, to take steps. Though I am sure that this is not its intention. If the US founding fathers had been resigned to their place then the US would possibly not have been formed. If Nelson Mandela et all has been resigned then South Africa may still be in Apartheid. If Lech Walessa...Poland, etc, etc. I am in no way suggesting that one should be politically active, but at every level you can only take steps forward by challenging yourself, and being resigned appears contrary to this, almost encouraging you not to find the light. Hence can you explain a little more about the context. I would hate to see darkness (had to get it in to keep you happy) ingrained in Masonic ritual.
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Post by JulesTheBit on Jul 14, 2006 10:28:05 GMT
Oooooooooh , No, don't muck about ;D Kenneth Williams, comic genius but a very sad man. Famously used in a Carry On movie, but actually wriiten by Frank Muir & Dennis Norden for another purpose. Used in the Carry on Movie by their permission, and I hope they didn't sign away the repeat fees Agreed re Kenneth Williams ... I met him once. Must stop name-dropping. The Duke of Kent gave me a severe telling off about that Gone to feed the goats. Back tomorrow afternoon. JS
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