|
Post by parisfred on Jul 17, 2006 20:47:36 GMT
I read that "mainstream" scandinavian GL initiates only christian men. Is it still true ?
|
|
|
Post by Flensted on Jul 17, 2006 21:59:18 GMT
The "mainstream" GL in Scandinavia is Christian yes. Only Christian men are initiatet in too the lodges working the swedish rites.
Hope that helped?
|
|
|
Post by parisfred on Jul 18, 2006 1:13:51 GMT
Thanks ! If you have time... how is freemasory in Denmark in 2006 ? What surprise you about the rest of the masonic world ? I am sure we are all curious about your masonry .
|
|
|
Post by swede on Jul 18, 2006 6:53:37 GMT
Parisfred, I'll add some basic facts about the Swedish rite, some of these facts may surprise you. The Swedish rite is worked in Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland, Finland and parts of Germany. Finland (formally a Chapter under the Swedish GL) is a bit "dualistic" as the Swedish rite co-exists in amity with the Finnish GL which I am told works regular blue lodge masonry. The Danish GL mainly works the Swedish rite, but has two smaller parts that work varieties of regular blue lodge masonry. The Swedish rite is only open to men of the christian faith. The reason for this is partly historical, partly due to Swedish rite degree system. The Swedish rite was created when the state church in Sweden was the only religion allowed (with very few exceptions). Also, the Swedish system does not have any side orders, appendant bodies or allied degrees etc. It is one integrated degree system with ten degrees. The first three degrees (I, II, and III)correspond to the anglosaxon blue lodge degrees EA, FC and MM. The remaining degrees correspond to various other degrees in the anglosaxon system (I am told...). Others know better, but the degrees VII - X (called chapter degrees) in some ways correspond the Templar degrees in the anglosaxon systems, and the religious influence becomes predominant (again, I am told...) Have a look at www.frimurarorden.se/eng/index.htm for further info about the Swedish GL, at www.ddfo.dk for the Danish GL. There is a good "review" of the Swedish rite published on the Pietre - Stones site, have a look at www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/swedish_constitution.html.
|
|
|
Post by Flensted on Jul 18, 2006 7:29:59 GMT
Another place on the forum we talked about some of the difference, and the comparing of the systems. staffs.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=new&action=display&thread=1133785664 And you ask: "What surprise you about the rest of the masonic world ?" :-) everything and then again not that much. The system with the appending bodies of the other systems puzzle me, it is a good thing to have one integrated degree system with ten degrees. Then again we are not all alike, so for some appending system and side orders is very very good, it could fit there state of mind and life. In the Danish order there is two smaller parts that work varieties of regular blue lodge masonry. They can't take the Royal Arch degree after that (as an example) mostly as it is part of a higher degree in the Swedish rites. They have the option to step in to the Swedish Rite in the 4. degree as a natural progression.
|
|
|
Post by munkholt on Jul 18, 2006 8:12:37 GMT
Allow me to jump in as well. But first: welcome Swede! Always good to have some support for the Scandinavian faction's weird secterian ways. If you have time... how is freemasory in Denmark in 2006 ? It's great, thank you for asking! A brief history (as I percieve it): Same as everywhere else we saw an insurge of members following the wars. Then interest plummeted in the 70s and 80s. 1993 was the 250th anniversary of FM in DK, and the Order published, and made available to the public, a book about itself – fairly boring stuff, but a big step none the less. Within the same year came the Norweigian book, 'Frimureri', which is until now the only available exposé about the Swedish Rite. Both events helped revive awareness that the Order existed. Also the Order began slowly opening its doors. In the 2000s giant steps have been taken: A fulltime press co-ordinator, a professional and informative website, a press conference, open house-events etc. And it pays off: People are pouring in – some lodges in Copenhagen have waiting lists of a year or more. And the younger generation now joining are creating networks of their own – for social and study purposes. This I see as a positive thing that will help the retention rate and invigorate the lodges for years to come. The success is dependant on several factors: - We have a different image in the public than what appears to be the case in the UK. Less talk of goats, rolled-up trouser legs or corruption in the judicial- and police depts. Overall the Order has retained a positive image in most of the public mind – I've compared it to the royal family: people might think it's a dated institution, but they still respect the work that they do and wouldn't want it to change too much. That is not to say that there aren't misconceptions: Rumours of favouritism abound here as well, and a particularly favourite is that you can ask the lodge for help two times, but the third time they give you a bullet to take care of it yourself ... Just recently a newspaper published the names of the members who were also members of the clergy, and the double-oath was questioned, but people hardly raised an eyebrow. Also, and I think this is very important, it remains mysterious to the broad public. You can't just buy a ritual book, and the rituals are not one of the things that have been part of the policy of openness. Holding on to traditions, like the dress code, is also part of its appeal. - Another big difference is that where you have to look for the esoterics in side degrees, we get hit with a very strong, symbolic, and imo. deeply esoteric ritual from the first degree. There are lectures at each meeting as well as study groups. The contents are Christian esotericism, it's not just randomly exclusive to other faiths – there are implications in the ritual that has inspiration from Kabbalah, Gnosticism, Rosicrucianism, Alchemy and Templarism. Members of the clergy hold special positions in Chapter. A recent poll showed that 80%+ of the population in Denmark viewed themselves as religious, though not necessarily Christian, but 80%+ are still members of the Church of Denmark. This means that while you need a birth certificate to get in, you can still meet some very alternative interpretations of what Christianity is – and nobody questions one's right to that opinion. It is also worth noting that we are in amity with UGLE et al, so naturally we won't keep visitors away because of their faith – they're more than welcome. And as Swede mentioned, Denmark is in the happy situation that we actually have Emulation-type Craft lodges (regular, as they have accepted the authority of the GM of the Order, although they rule themselves in the day-to-day), so people still have a choice. [spelling edits]
|
|
|
Post by forester on Jul 18, 2006 9:06:09 GMT
Nice bit of research Thomas - I tried to find out about the Swedish rite before I came to your 1st but there is scant info about it.
|
|
|
Post by parisfred on Jul 18, 2006 13:06:40 GMT
Munkholt , I also found a lot of interresting information on your blog, : frimurer.squarespace.com/journey/ What you say about waiting list is a good news, it remembered exactly what a brother told about freemasonry in Iceland ( the waiting list) just a few weeks ago !
|
|
|
Post by munkholt on Jul 18, 2006 13:36:52 GMT
Norway has experienced a drastic increase as well – they seem to be a few years ahead of us in that regard, and they're now consolidating. They're at 18-19.000 members, where as we're only about half that number ( plus 2-3.000 in blue lodges*), but as I said the number is on the rise. It's slow progress though, because it's a sad fact that the many brethren who joined following the war, are passing to the eternal East these years. I think Sweden is also seeing a positive trend (Swede?). *) The Ancient Fraternity of Free and Accepted Masons of Denmark
|
|
|
Post by swede on Jul 18, 2006 14:12:28 GMT
Yes, Munkholt, although I do not have that many years to compare with I think you are right about Sweden and a positive trend.
I can give you two examples, waiting list being the factor of significance re the positive trend. - First, myself. I didn't have a sponsor ("fadder") when I approached the local lodge so that added some time to the process. From the day that I formally submitted my application to the day of my initiation approx. two years passed. - Second, a friend of mine who was initiated this last April had waited nine months. As far as I can tell, this is fairly standard at the moment. I am told that the waiting list may becoming even longer even though my lodge gives a first degree once a week during the active part of the year.
I find that the brethren that frequent the local lodge of Saint John ("blue lodge", or Sw. "S:t Johannesloge") are mostly in their thirties, officers aside. To my, a low average age indicates new interest.
Slightly off topic, but maybe somewhat interesting. I am also an odd fellow (IOOF), and has been for some time. Odd Fellows have a membership that is approx. three times that of the Swedish GL, partly due to the existance of separate but equal female lodges. The local odd fellows lodges are not experiencing the same positive trend, quite the contrary. My IOOF lodge will just about initiate any warm body that can be lured to a meeting. The lodge will even sponsor the post-lodge dinner (similar to festive board) for the first year of membership for new brothers. The lodge still has problems. The average age of the attending brethren is significantly higher than in my masonic lodge. I think I know a few of the reasons for the differences, but I will not go on further about it unless someone prompts me to.
Just my five cents.
|
|
|
Post by irishmason on Jul 22, 2006 5:29:56 GMT
Hi good morning.
The FO Swedish rite in Germany accepts also members of other faith than Christian. I know lodges who have Muslim members. If such a member is not opposed to the faith of a borther, whcih a FM should not be and if he can say yes to the basic teaching of Jesus, which you find in the Tota and the Koran, then there is no problem.
ED
|
|
|
Post by Flensted on Jul 23, 2006 14:59:10 GMT
I did not know that Ed.
As far as I am aware of the Swedish rites, the Christian faith is mandatory if you want to be considered for the Swedish Rite lodges. But then again I do not know much about the German lodges working in the Swedish Rite System - sorry too say.
But if you have more on it, and are willing to share with the rest here, then please do. Many are showing interest in the Swedish Rites here on the forum.
|
|
|
Post by irishmason on Jul 24, 2006 10:55:51 GMT
Dear Mark,
When I joined the FO Swedish rite in Germany in 82, I was told that it was not mandatory to be a Christian but the only point was to be in agreement with the general teaching of Jesus . Being not a member of a church but open to some religions and a more heretic person I had not problems and the membership in the FO created never a problem for me
I left the FO due to the problem they have, no double membership in another degree (Mark was the problem( and joined the British Freemasons in Germany and then I moved to Ireland for good.
With my relatively "heretic" point of view I had never any problem or conflict, our lodge had Turkish members, Muslims and they had no problem either. Who could have a problem with the teachings of Jesus?
I have more problem with my feelings here in Ireland, where I find the ritual is more religious. I personally find the Swedish system a very logical straight forward sytems through all degrees Craft, St. Andrews and upwards. Beautiful ritual.
ED
|
|
|
Post by Flensted on Jul 24, 2006 16:14:23 GMT
I did not know they did it like that in Germany - but as long as it works, then I see no problem there.
I hear the same here in Denmark about double membership - for some people (like you) that can give problems or couse a bit fustrations.
|
|
|
Post by sonofawidow9 on Dec 18, 2007 15:38:00 GMT
On the application for the Swedish Rite in Germany you must state and sign "that "you believe in the doctrine of Jesus Christ, as contained in the Holy Scripture". The Swedish Rite in Germany that I have seen first hand is explicitly Christian and in fact they put their candidates through a rather grueling interview that I have only before seen done with such intensity in the Rectifie Ecossais blue lodge in Strasbourg, France an RER lodge in Spain and one other elsewhere. They also must sign an allegiance of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in the German GL Swedish Rite. I know Lutherans, Gnostic Christians, Orthodox, Protestant and Old Catholic members of the German Grand Lodge of Swedish Rite, but they are all very Christian esotericists. Considering the beginnings of the RER in France, I am a bit taken back to see a brother from Paris who is surprised by Christian Freemasonry . The Ancients & Stuarts of old in the UK were horrified at the de-Christianization of Freemasonry in England & much of this sentiment appears in the various French degrees of Jacobite origin/influence that appeared in the 18th Century in France. This is also the reason that so little documentation is found from the 16-17th and even the early 18th Century in England. Many of the rural celtic lodges burned their papers rather than let the Hanoverian English Grand Lodge folk get their hands on them. Many cohesive Rites (much like the Swedish Rite) existed in the various provinces, and they were broken up with the St andrew grades and above (Knighthoods and Rosy Cross degrees) being ostracized from the craft grades and Royal Arch. Also, to come back to the Swedish Rite: I think one would be very uncomfortable and possibly even offended if they were not Christian but were to advance into the Chapter and on up the ladder into the high degrees of the Swedish Rite as they reveal more and more of what is a very Christian interpretation of things.
|
|
|
Post by forester on Dec 22, 2007 19:19:34 GMT
The Ancients & Stuarts of old in the UK were horrified at the de-Christianization of Freemasonry in England & much of this sentiment appears in the various French degrees of Jacobite origin/influence that appeared in the 18th Century in France. This is also the reason that so little documentation is found from the 16-17th and even the early 18th Century in England. Many of the rural celtic lodges burned their papers rather than let the Hanoverian English Grand Lodge folk get their hands on them. I find this interesting from a research point of view and would like to know where you get this information from ?
|
|
|
Post by lauderdale on Dec 22, 2007 19:39:28 GMT
Sonofawidow9 I too have read such in various places over the years and it makes sense to me given the history of Britain and Europe at the time. When the four London Lodges met in 1717 to found the (Moderns) Grand Lodge it was only two years after the First Jacobite Rising of 1715 and there were plenty amongst the Aristocracy and Gentry of the time who still favoured "The King across the water" over the "Wee German lairdie" and his successors of the House of Hanover. The Stuarts were RCs and thus were debarred from the Throne under the Act of Settlement.
I can see where the more overtly Christian Orders would appeal to them and why Augustus Frederick Guelph - Duke of Sussex was so opposed to the various Christian Orders and Degrees during his term as the First Grand Master of UGLE from its foundation in 1813 till his death in 1843.
|
|
|
Post by devoutfreemason on Dec 24, 2007 16:39:51 GMT
I do not have a problem with an exclusivley Christian Rite. I do however have a problem with an exclusivley Christian system. That means that men of other faiths must choose to be labled "clandestine" or "irregular" should they choose to seek the light of Freemasonry. This to me is totally unacceptable.
|
|
|
Post by middlepillar on Dec 24, 2007 18:07:44 GMT
I do not have a problem with an exclusivley Christian Rite. I do however have a problem with an exclusivley Christian system. That means that men of other faiths must choose to be labled "clandestine" or "irregular" should they choose to seek the light of Freemasonry. This to me is totally unacceptable. DFM If a totally Christian Masonic system labelled all other masonic Systems as being irregular or clandestine I would have to agree with you. But I do not believe this is the case. I think you will find The Swedish Rite acknowledges recognises and allows its members to visit other Lodges under different Grand Lodges in fact two Swedish rite brethren visited my Lodge only 18 months ago. I would be interested to hear if any Christian Rite does consider all other masonry 'Irregular'
|
|
|
Post by devoutfreemason on Dec 24, 2007 20:19:19 GMT
I do not have a problem with an exclusivley Christian Rite. I do however have a problem with an exclusivley Christian system. That means that men of other faiths must choose to be labled "clandestine" or "irregular" should they choose to seek the light of Freemasonry. This to me is totally unacceptable. DFM If a totally Christian Masonic system labelled all other masonic Systems as being irregular or clandestine I would have to agree with you. But I do not believe this is the case. I think you will find The Swedish Rite acknowledges recognises and allows its members to visit other Lodges under different Grand Lodges in fact two Swedish rite brethren visited my Lodge only 18 months ago. I would be interested to hear if any Christian Rite does consider all other masonry 'Irregular' Middlepillar, If you are in the USA or visiting the USA only one grand lodge in those countries is consider "regular" or "recognized" and that is the Christians only GL. That is where I have a problem. Wouldn't the SR be better if it where looked at as a side body for those who wanted religious specific fraternity than being the recognized authority for Freemasonry in those countries?
|
|