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Post by smadgos on Jan 19, 2014 1:41:26 GMT
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Post by Aslantash on Mar 26, 2014 15:18:10 GMT
Dear Elad, if ever Masonic , it looks as if coming indeed from a German lodge (Potsdam is a city southwest of Berlin). This too is indicated by the engraved names which are not only typical German, but also typical east-German (as is the city of Potsdam). "Tragnitz" and "Lübenau" are names with a typical Sorbian etymoloy (the enfings -itz and -au < ow). This fits very fine to the region southeast of Berlin. However, I cannot figure out what does the word mean which is written above the name "Schuffenhauer", and: the arrangement of the symbols does not look very masonic (note that in Germany also architects, carpenters etc had similar symbols in their guild insignia).
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Post by sammy on Apr 4, 2014 18:05:35 GMT
So far the only thing I am finding documented is a series of theology books in 1821-1825. No mention of the word U'egel or even anything else if you just go by that word alone. There is this though... I also noted a WWII on the bottom of the cup by the artist signature. There is also this guy who bears the same name, and sometimes the ff was replaced with a p. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_SchopenhauerThis is where the relation to the Theology came in, as I think they collaborated. plato.stanford.edu/entries/ludwig-feuerbach/
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Post by rynniel on Apr 4, 2014 20:22:26 GMT
It says " Uebcl ", without an apostrop e, that part looks to me like a little damage. As far as I know its old german for something like Earthing, but I could be wrong. I just asked someone what it means who knows german better than me, Im waiting for an answer. Perhaps the name schuffenhauer is from Johann Karl August Schuffenhauer
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Post by sammy on Apr 5, 2014 13:01:46 GMT
Its very hard to find anything HAHA. All the history and genealogy is in German, does make it easy to figure out.
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Post by sammy on Apr 5, 2014 14:49:00 GMT
OK so I was looking at the U'ebcl close up since I had missed the spelling. Then the L at the end struck me as odd. It is much rougher then all the other letters, and also in a different style then all the other letters. Then I noticed that the C before the L had a blob of pewter at the top. Possibly filled in and polished to turn the "e" into a "c"? Then the "l" was roughly scratched on. It would be a word I could see worth going through all the trouble.
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Post by sammy on Apr 5, 2014 14:51:32 GMT
Im also noticing scratches in line with the C and L in question.
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Post by rynniel on Apr 5, 2014 16:54:51 GMT
sammy, you were right about the dutch translation "Euvel". Uebcl does mean euvel, and in english it means "shortcoming" (?) Has nothing to do with evil though...
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Post by sammy on Apr 5, 2014 19:16:11 GMT
Oh I didn't know or have bias either way. That's just the wiki translation. WWII was also more then 100 years after this cup was dated as well, things don't add up. Even the name in early Germany is hard to place. Very strange collection of words and symbols on the cup too. It seems something is amiss with that L in U'ebcl though, Id be willing to bet on it. The person who made the L was not the same who made the other letters.
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Post by sammy on Apr 5, 2014 19:23:02 GMT
It could have just been rubbed off in storage over the years and poorly done over. But I definitely see an issue with the style and steadiness of every other letter. The bottom curve isn't fluid like all the others. As well the engraver had done dips into the pewter on the tops of bottom of all the letters. Then again like I mentioned the scratches.
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Post by rynniel on Apr 5, 2014 20:19:14 GMT
I wont be suprised if that word and some of the symbols are added later. The style looks indeed different, more sloppy...
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Post by sammy on Apr 8, 2014 15:03:28 GMT
I am no master engraver by any means. I have some history with it though, and with multiple materials (wood, metals, stone).
If I had to guess I would say the engraver used something close to a ice pick, there is also lines from the tool between the letters. Possibly small hammer taps for the dips? I wouldn't think it was an electric tool, pewter is soft enough to do it by hand anyway.
The L looks to me like many cuts I have seen made with a knife into led or other soft metals.
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Post by sammy on Apr 9, 2014 15:49:24 GMT
I was thinking if this cup is period to the date on the bottom, as also the tools suggest. There could have just been wear on the stein from how it sat in a horse bag. The constant rubbing wouldn't take long to wear through some letters, and with the handle they might have always stored it in the same way every time.
You could be right about the symbols being added later. There is a new one used to make it that wasn't used for the lettering. It could have just been for the shading though. As some of the lines in the shapes seem to be the same with the deep groove and dip into the pewter.
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