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Post by corab on Oct 24, 2006 21:59:49 GMT
By the way, i see some Female faces arround here and i would like to ask if they are """Masons""" or sisters (ladies, rainbows, daughters) No need for the quotation marks, Bro:. Ordo -- I am very definitely a Mason, and so are many of the other female faces you will meet on MFoL. My Order, The International Order of Co-Freemasonry "Le Droit Humain", works the full AASR plus York Rite, and if you were to visit us you would recognise most of what we do -- although from comparison of our ritual with Emulation & Taylor's I do believe we have a stronger emphasis on the esoteric aspects of Freemasonry. My Lodge has decided to address its female members as "Sisters" but I prefer to be addressed as Bro:. We've struggled long enough to be acknowledged as our Brn's equals -- why on Earth should we insist on being treated or addressed differently now? But that could just be me! ;D S&F, Cora
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Post by ariel on Oct 24, 2006 22:12:52 GMT
I totally agree with Bro.Cora , but will be taken to task since I am in name "profane" and until such time when I, too, can be a Mason, I have no real right to call any of you wonderful members Bro ! Kind regards, Ariel
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 24, 2006 22:27:30 GMT
Now that is an interesting point Cora, I think that Brother sound best also.
I can't really say why it just seems to fit better.
You have Master do you mot? otherwise it would be Mistress, which might not put everyone off but it just does not sound right. Maybe I'm just getting old.
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Post by corab on Oct 25, 2006 11:36:04 GMT
Now that is an interesting point Cora, I think that Brother sound best also. I can't really say why it just seems to fit better. You have Master do you mot? otherwise it would be Mistress, which might not put everyone off but it just does not sound right. Maybe I'm just getting old. If memory serves me well some Female Lodges use the term Mistress. We use Master, and in particular stretches in the ritual we insist on using "he" throughout, even if the RWM is a woman. An example is the Opening, after the RWIPM has confirmed the Master's constant place in the Lodge: "Why is he so placed?" etc. My personal theory on that is that the Sun is generally considered to be a masculine energy (likewise so is fire considered a masculine element) and that this particular stretch of the Opening is so deeply entwined with the stations of the Sun that it would be nonsensical to speak of the RWM in the feminine. But that's just my take on it. I will adjust to the Lodge's ethic, but I definitely prefer to be addressed as Bro:. S&F, Cora
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Oct 25, 2006 11:59:44 GMT
Perhaps in your co-masonic Lodge, CoraB, but not in all English speaking Co-Masonic Lodges under Le Droit Humain, where I have more than not heard the question asked being 'Why is SHE so placed?'.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 25, 2006 12:24:19 GMT
I think its more to do with the 'Old English' - 'Master' as in 'Master of a Craft', 'one who excelles at a trade'. A teacher.
Not to be confused with someone who has to be obeyed. ' I am your master, you are my slave'.
I think Sisterhood is just as powerful a term as Brotherhood , or Mistress as master. But, in Freemasonry the term Brother and Master seem to fit the historical sense.
But its a personal preference and must be left to each Lodge.
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Post by gipsyrose on Oct 25, 2006 14:33:10 GMT
I currently view the use of the word "he" in my co-masonic ritual book as a reflection of the standard form of English that was in general use until the 1970's, rather than having some form of esoteric meaning, and I have a strong preference for it to be adjusted to the gender of the individual in an actual ceremony.
This is probably because I wrote university essays in the 70's in which it was radical to use the word she instead of he. I also think that as a response to training myself at that time to use language that did recognise women, I have a personal preference for the term sister, although my lodge use brother. On the other hand, I prefer the term master, instead of mistress, as I think it now has a neutral gender identity, at least in Australasian English.
(Reminds me of how much I enjoyed Bill Bryson's book Mother Tongue. It gave me a much greater appreciation of how English has developed as a language, and showed me some of the mistaken beliefs many of us have about what is good English.)
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Post by corab on Oct 25, 2006 18:11:09 GMT
Perhaps in your co-masonic Lodge, CoraB, but not in all English speaking Co-Masonic Lodges under Le Droit Humain, where I have more than not heard the question asked being 'Why is SHE so placed?'. Depends on the ritual used, I guess. Lauderdale specifically states "HE" should be used here. S&F, Cora
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Post by maat on Oct 25, 2006 23:23:37 GMT
MASTER is correct! End of story!
Master is NOT a reference to WHO is sitting in the Chair - it is a reference to the fact that (hopefully) the person IS A MASTER. The word master referring to a person or thing that has POWER, CONTROL or AUTHORITY.
We have PEOPLE who MASTER skills. We do not have people mistressing skills.
By the same token the word MANKIND noun means "ALL LIVING PEOPLE". Folks, women are living creatures, just like men.
Fatherhood of God, Brotherhood of Mankind Fatherhood of God, Brotherhood of Mankind Fatherhood of God, Brotherhood of Mankind Fatherhood of God, Brotherhood of Mankind
Bro. Maat
(sorry Dad, but they asked for it ;D)
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 26, 2006 0:39:23 GMT
Cambridge Dictionary:- 1 a person who has control over or responsibility for someone or something, or who is the most important or influential person in a situation or organization:
2 a person who is very skilled in a particular job or activity
3 a famous and very skilled painter:
4 masterful - adjective If an action is masterful, it is very skilful:
So I say it is more than Just being in charge.
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Post by parisfred on Oct 26, 2006 11:02:02 GMT
I don't know your GL Ordo but I have the pleasure to know the Liberal Grand Lodge of Turkey, a GL that initiate only men but accept the visit of sisters in lodge, they didn't mention all of the problems above, laps between degrees, irrespect in lodge etc..
And they are known through europe for the quality of their work.
In quite every country now, we have the choice between different... "view of the freemasonry", there is books and websites now to make the good choice.
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Post by ingo on Oct 27, 2006 11:08:47 GMT
Bro. Ordo, a rose is a rose is a rose. A mason is a mason is a mason - even if the Bro. is a "She"
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Post by middlepillar on Oct 27, 2006 17:00:32 GMT
A Freemason is a Freemason as far as I am concerned. I am not in the slightest bit interested in their biological sex or gender orientation. I consider Cora as an example to be a Fellowcraft Freemason, and Past MasterChris to be a PM like myself. That they are women is irrelevant to me in this context. This is one statement of fact that I am 100% in agreement with Steve on!
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Post by ORDO on Nov 11, 2006 3:07:16 GMT
Well i have to be honest. I am more of a traditional guy. i follow the rules which i am obligated to. i am not that much open to change the old traditions of Freemasonry. so of course we can be friends , we can have chat and things but; (maybe because of the middle eastern blood i have) i just cant accept a lady to be called MASON.
In my oppinion; you can be sister, daughter, mom or a friend but not a BROTHER.
i can understand your upset but i would join in the other bodies of Freemasonry, to be called sister, other than a "clandestine lodge member" or "stranger". as you know there are Daughters of The Nile and many more bodies of Freemasonry. so WHY DO YOU WANT TO BE CALLED MASON? you know you are not gonna be recognized. and you know, what most of us think about this subject.
i shouldnt even talk about this subject with you. but i started it. i know.
by the way, since i am usually taking care of my website, i am not able to give so much time here. so sorry for the late answer. also PLEASE DONT TAKE IT PERSONALLY. you probably already know what we are OBLIGATED TO.
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Post by Bettendorf on Nov 11, 2006 3:23:48 GMT
Well i have to be honest. I am more of a traditional guy. i follow the rules which i am obligated to. i am not that much open to change the old traditions of Freemasonry. so of course we can be friends , we can have chat and things but; (maybe because of the middle eastern blood i have) i just cant accept a lady to be called MASON. In my oppinion; you can be sister, daughter, mom or a friend but not a BROTHER. i can understand your upset but i would join in the other bodies of Freemasonry, to be called sister, other than a "clandestine lodge member" or "stranger". as you know there are Daughters of The Nile and many more bodies of Freemasonry. so WHY DO YOU WANT TO BE CALLED MASON? you know you are not gonna be recognized. and you know, what most of us think about this subject. i shouldnt even talk about this subject with you. but i started it. i know. by the way, since i am usually taking care of my website, i am not able to give so much time here. so sorry for the late answer. also PLEASE DONT TAKE IT PERSONALLY. you probably already know what we are OBLIGATED TO. The whole human race can benefit from the Light, not only men. Besides, a female Freemason is sexy ;D I dont really think women were ever really considered "free" when such obligations and restrictions of women being made Masons were crafted, either, they were considered to have a master in one form or another. Social perspective has greatly changed from this, and Freemasonry has not caught up (yet).
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Post by ORDO on Nov 11, 2006 3:44:05 GMT
The whole human race can benefit from the Light, not only men. Besides, a female Freemason is sexy ;D I dont really think women were ever really considered "free" when such obligations and restrictions of women being made Masons were crafted, either, they were considered to have a master in one form or another. Social perspective has greatly changed from this, and Freemasonry has not caught up (yet). If you think the whole human race can benefit from it and Freemasonry is for everybody; well why dont we make 10 year old kids or 100 year old man, or an ateist a Mason? and if you were thinking this way, how and why did you make your obligation? we need to accept that freemasonry is not for everybody. this is something we earn because we are good MAN and coming well recommended. and another point of view is also; this is a fraternity not a sorority or mixed. do we try to get involved in a sorority group? and here is something funny about it. What Turkish Grand Lodge website says about this is only "WOMEN ARE HOLY, THEY ARE PERFECT, THEY DONT NEED THIS EDUCATION"
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Post by ariel on Nov 11, 2006 3:48:55 GMT
And it will not catch up as long as females are considered as "sexy" ! If male Masons undermine the intellectual and spiritual side of females and see them as just "sexy", there certaintly will be very little chance of them ever being taken seriously enough as Masons.
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Post by Bettendorf on Nov 11, 2006 3:52:41 GMT
The whole human race can benefit from the Light, not only men. Besides, a female Freemason is sexy ;D I dont really think women were ever really considered "free" when such obligations and restrictions of women being made Masons were crafted, either, they were considered to have a master in one form or another. Social perspective has greatly changed from this, and Freemasonry has not caught up (yet). If you think the whole human race can benefit from it and Freemasonry is for everybody; well why dont we make 10 year old kids or 100 year old man, or an ateist a Mason? and if you were thinking this way, how and why did you make your obligation? we need to accept that freemasonry is not for everybody. this is something we earn because we are good MAN and coming well recommended. and another point of view is also; this is a fraternity not a sorority or mixed. do we try to get involved in a sorority group? I do agree that Freemasonry isnt for everybody, but none of my exclusion in terms of this has anything to do with some ones gender. Freemasonry is more than a Fraternity, it is a School of Initiation, with Spiritual and Mystical import. I think the kind of Fraternity you are thinking of is a College Frat which best serves as a networking hub for guys looking for drinking buddies. Also, is a good man somehow better than an equally good WOman?
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Post by Bettendorf on Nov 11, 2006 3:57:36 GMT
And it will not catch up as long as females are considered as "sexy" ! If male Masons undermine the intellectual and spiritual side of females and see them as just "sexy", there certaintly will be very little chance of them ever being taken seriously enough as Masons. Sorry ariel, that you have taken offense, my humor usually isnt taken well nor my lighter side of seriousness. As the point of arguments that I have made thus far in this thread and elsewhere on the board regarding Lady Masons, gender and "sexiness" *chuckles, has no role in my argument for Regular Masonry and where woman may hope to fit into it someday, it is purely a spiritual and mental equality of both genders that I argue, thus why I believe woman shall be admitted Regular Masons. Sorry for any undermining of woman you can interpret from my posts, it is sincerely not intended.
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Post by ORDO on Nov 11, 2006 4:04:03 GMT
well if my AASR or YR would accept ladies. i would be out of Masonry right away. This is the first time i have ever heard SR or YR work together with Co-Masonry.
There are Liberal Lodges all arround the world. but as you see its called "Liberal Grand Lodge of Turkey" it is not "The Grand Lodge Of Turkey" and the Liberal GL of Turkey is not recognized by the UGLE or any Regular GL arround the europe. and they have close to 2000 members there which is not a lot when you think about the GL of Turkey which has 15.000 members and had been recognized by almost all countries GLs.
By the way. i am sure this subject would take lot and lot more time and postings. but i CANT and WOULD NOT WANT TO get involved in this subject anymore.
MY OBLIGATION, MY WORD, MY PROMISE IS MY HONOR.
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