staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Jan 15, 2007 19:16:01 GMT
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imakegarb
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Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Jan 16, 2007 3:07:47 GMT
My. That *is* a well done piece. As good as this one, even. Hmmmmm. If we try hard enough, could we find as many good features on Freemasons as we do poor features?
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staffs
Administrator
Staffs
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Post by staffs on Jan 16, 2007 7:29:26 GMT
In the latest issue of MQ the UGLE monthly publication there is an article on Women only Freemasonry over several pages.
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Post by a on Jan 16, 2007 7:47:38 GMT
Staffs
Would you send me a copy of this please? It will give me something positive to refer to the next time I am laughingly told "dont be silly women can't be Freemasons - it is a male only thing you know."
As I understand it, the official UGLE line is that women can be Freemaons, just not with them. But sometimes I come across people who laugh at this, and it would be nice to have something concrete to refer them to.
Thanks in advance
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Post by whistler on Jan 16, 2007 8:32:30 GMT
Staffs As I understand it, the official UGLE line is that women can be Freemaons, just not with them. But sometimes I come across people who laugh at this, and it would be nice to have something concrete to refer them to. Stewart I thought you would have realized by now that UGLE is but one of many Freemasonry organizations - it certainly is not the benchmark For Freemasonry - so who really cares what the UGLE Official Line is. It can be the Piccadilly or Bakerloo line for all it matters.
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Post by a on Jan 16, 2007 8:41:14 GMT
Whistler
Sorry I was trying to be tactful to egos.
I meant for the next time either an UGLE Mason or even just a man in the street tells me this.
As a matter of routine I pass information on about other orders as and when appropriate.
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Post by a on Jan 16, 2007 9:06:30 GMT
Whistler
Also as it happens I do care what the Official UGLE line is. Why? Because:-
1. I have too often come across a diverge between theory and practice. At least with the Official line being accurate, there is a benchmark against which members can be referred to when they start claiming things that are patently not true. Whether UGLE powers that be chose to tolerate the theory gap or close it, clearly is their issue.
2. I agree that in my travels I have found a lot more Freemasonry out with the UGLE brand than I have within in, in relative terms, and I have also found UGLE-amity fraternities to be more helpful to my requests, a lot more helpful in fact, than UGLE itself. To be fair UGLE has phoned me and emailed me in the past but this is relatively rare, and even then less helpful than UGLE-amity frats tend to be.
3. While I am sure it will grate many in UGLE to hear it, in some ways what UGLE is going through today is what I went through a decade ago, so I do have an empathy bond for the health of UGLE. I can feel the sheer decisive moment that it is at, and I strongly suspect that UGLE wants to close the gap, but is perhaps a little lost as to how to do it. Sort of been there.
4. Over the years I have spoken to a lot of unhappy current and ex UGLE members. Ranging from those who quietly leave and give up on Freemasonry, through to the likes of Steve who switch, to those who stay within UGLE but just don't get involved with Craft lodges anymore as they find them simply too dark (egos, petty politics etc).
5. It does matter for every Mason who leaves broken, lost, or sad, does risk inadvertently darkening our world.
I guess what I am trying to say Whistler is that while I do agree with you, in the bigger picture of Freemasonry in our world, UGLE is but one part, a part that does appear to be falling by the wayside. But it does matter for so many are affected by the actions of UGLE Masons, both the good and the bad. At least when the Official policy is sensible there is the hope that one day UGLE may find the inner courage to take an important step on its own journey. A step that I myself took some years back.
As I have said before Whistler, and I apologies for this is covering ground on a thread the mods deleted, but it is relevant to answering your point Whistler, I do value all Masonic fraternities, and I have found some truly enlightened people in UGLE, and others who are so so close but who perhaps feel thwarted by the system. They persevere, and I am not going to neglect them.
Like it or not UGLE is important. And assuming that it has made the correct decisions last year, it does stand every chance of beaming forward in our world as it finds its own inner light once again.
Apologies to the 99% of UGLE and amity Masons that this post may have upset. Bear in mind that I was only explaining my position to Whistler from his post. But take comfort in that as I have been saying for a long time now, 2006 was a decisive year for UGLE, so I am no longer trying to generate thought.
Let me apologise once again to any who may be offended by my above opinions.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Jan 16, 2007 15:11:36 GMT
I'd like a copy, too. Could we do a trade? I could send you Filberts. ;D
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Post by Mikepm on Jan 16, 2007 23:20:00 GMT
Staffs As I understand it, the official UGLE line is that women can be Freemaons, just not with them. But sometimes I come across people who laugh at this, and it would be nice to have something concrete to refer them to. Stewart I thought you would have realized by now that UGLE is but one of many Freemasonry organizations - it certainly is not the benchmark For Freemasonry - so who really cares what the UGLE Official Line is. It can be the Piccadilly or Bakerloo line for all it matters. A bit disrespectful to UGLE, YES IT IS ONE OF MANY ORGANISATIONS, but one that many use as a bench mark.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 16, 2007 23:35:39 GMT
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Post by kizzy on Jan 17, 2007 0:57:42 GMT
I have to side with Whistler in this. I would have put it a bit more diplomatically but UGLE isn't the only game in town and I would doubt, for example if The Grand Orient of France uses is as a benchmark. It isn't even the oldest GL in the British Isles, that honour goes to the Grand Lodge of Ireland (1725) as UGLE came into existence, per se, in 1813 being formed from the Union the Moderns and the Antients. The GL of Scotland also predates it (1736) . Some would say that Mother Kilwinning predates them all as it is said to date from "Time Immemorial". Yes what was to become the GL of The Moderns dates from 1717 but to say that UGLE can take its rise from then is as silly as to say that I arose in 1916, the year my late mother was born, when in fact I arose after the Union of my mother and father (born 1920) in the year of 1953 in August of which I was born.
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Post by whistler on Jan 17, 2007 2:51:31 GMT
Hey Stewart Like it or not UGLE is important.Yeh Like the English Cricket team. The only English Team worth supporting is Team Stewart When you race across the Sahara with the speed of a thousand Camels
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Post by a on Jan 17, 2007 7:23:55 GMT
Whistler, while I am very touched by your thoughts The only English Team worth supporting is Team Stewart When you race across the Sahara with the speed of a thousand Camels That will be 2010. However, and I appreciate that this may be less than tactless, but I may be an Earthling, a European and British, and I may have spent the last 15+ years in England, and I may have an English wife, but.............I am a Scot. And when I run the MDS I understand that they have separate categories for Scots and English, so I will be racing for...Scotland...... Hark when the night is falling Here here the pipes are calling Loudly and proudly calling down through the glen There where the hills are sleeping Now feel the blood a leaping High as the spirits of the old highland men Towering in gallant fame Scotland my mountain hame High may your proud standards gloriously wave Land of my high endeavour Land of the shining silver Land of my heart forever Scotland the Brave.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 17, 2007 19:58:49 GMT
There is absolutely no doubt that the vast majority of Modern Freemasonry happily accept the Establishemnet of what is termed Modern Freemasonry as at 1717. The seedling of the United Grand Lodge of England.
The majority is shown by those who wish to go through the excercise - go to al the GL's around the world and check the web sites . There will be very few that do not freely accept this as such.
There may be anumber of Orders such as those mentioned above that do not wish to follow this example , thats fine and hurts no one.
but to try and make the case that UGLE is not " the benchmark For Freemasonry" is bordering on the silly.
Of course there were Lodges prior to this foundation being laid. UGLE says so quite clearly. But they were not collected together in a uniform manner in any way. There were stonemasons and allied trades prior to this, again accepted but Organised Freemasonry became established on 24 June 1717.
If anyone is saying there was any other form of organised national or international Freemasonry , then they should place the evidence here.
One Lodge does not a Benchmark make.
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Post by Lynz on Jan 18, 2007 3:05:16 GMT
It is my view that the UGLE certainly is the benchmark. I am not aware of any recognised regular GL that is not in Fraternal association with UGLE. And that most certainly includes the GLNZ.
That does not mean that other Orders do not have merit. To the contrary. I know of several Brethren who are members of Eastern Star along with their wives. And in Christchurch ES share a Lodge Room with several Craft Lodges. But... and the devil is in the but, neither those Brethren nor any other Craft Lodge member may have Masonic contact with an irregular order.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jan 18, 2007 3:25:52 GMT
Bro. Lynz wrote:I am not aware of any recognised regular GL that is not in Fraternal association with UGLE. I suggest this is a circular argument, with 'recognised regular' being implicity defined as 'being in amity with UGLE.'
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 18, 2007 4:51:30 GMT
Yes Bro Tamrin it is an argument that cannot in the present circumstances be resolved. A similar question was posed on another well known Masonic Forum, generated a lot of heat , went on for scores of pages but was left where it started with two entrenched camps. It did achieve one thing for me as some of the postings there helped me to make up my mind to change to Co-masonry so it wasn't a waste of time.
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Post by a on Jan 18, 2007 7:57:25 GMT
The UGLE amity publicity/energy machine has been pretty strong for many people do believe that this is the only brand of Freemasonry out there.
However when you look around you you find that UGLE amity is only one part of the global Masonic picture.
Even on this and tfm forum over the past couple of years it has been shown that:-
1. In France as one example, nearly all (90%ish??) of Freemasons are not UGLE-amity.
2. Italy has 300??? fraternities, mostly very small I give you - but under territorial jurisdiction only 1 can be in amity (unless the frat has agreed to share power in this regard).
3. In the United States, most would accept that Prince Hall Freemasonry is regular, but many of those frats are still non UGLE-amity.
4. lDH as one example is one fraternity that covers the globe, relatively small in each country, but sizable globally.
5. The French fraternities over the past year or so have made tremendous efforts I understand to work better together.
6. Due perhaps to the "Mummery" aspect of some in UGLE some believe that UGLE is not all that Masonic in practice, regardless of what the theory may say.
7. I remember someone recently saying on forum that their fraternity has generally kept its head down due to the nasty stuff that malecraft freemasons have done to them over the years.
From all that I have come across in the Masonic world, I would suggest that UGLE may be a benchmark (and not a very highly regarded one in some places) but it is not the only benchmark.
Other benchmarks include:-
1. The French fraternities for finding the inner courage over the past few years to work better together. 2. lDH for being a truly global fraternity. 3. Every fraternity that is able to pierce the veil (they don't just apply to individuals) and see the beauty of the gift they guard from ancient days, as opposed to seeing it as mummery.
So in my opinion UGLE is certainly a benchmark, but it is not the benchmark.
And sadly that benchmark could arguably be said to be more towards the dark than the light (think of all of those "one off" exceptional cases that have been highlighted over the years and the simple fact that it can be difficult to find the light within UGLE forcing people like Steve to move, and even the "Its all mummery"/exclusive social club attitude). I have even been warned by some who come here that some in UGLE can be quite nasty, and indeed over the years there has been evidence of this on forums. The darker aspect could be accidental I give you. It could simply be the result of playing with ancient symbolism/energies but not understanding what you are doing.
Hard to accept I know, but that does not make it untrue.
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Post by middlepillar on Jan 18, 2007 9:20:21 GMT
Statistics, statistics...Give me a good accountant!
Perhaps the most telling statistic of all is this;
After however long the Forums have been going (I am only talking TFM, LRUK and MFoL) and after all the conversations have been had and the threads explored, how many Brethren have changed thier allegiance from UGLE to another? One (that I am aware of).
We always seem to come back to the simple reality that these Forums along with the discussions they create are only accessed by a very small percentage of Freemasons! I love them but it seems in reality nothing changes.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 18, 2007 9:36:55 GMT
To conclude then Stewart
If you contend that UGLE is a Benchmark but not the Benchmark, you would have to quote what is the Benchmark ?
by saying "So in my opinion UGLE is certainly a benchmark, but it is not the benchmark. " You concede there must be one.
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