staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Nov 8, 2004 19:10:27 GMT
I will hopefully be doing my third in April and will be looking to an additional degree .
Opinions would be greatfully received as to what path to take first and why ??
Mark or Chapter
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Post by whistler on Nov 8, 2004 20:16:47 GMT
I will hopefully be doing my third in April and will be looking to an additional degree . Opinions would be greatfully received as to what path to take first and why ?? Mark or Chapter IMO Don't look to an additional degree, concentrate on your 3rd degree, and grow into it and then look to your next step. If you are already thinking beyond your third, when you haven't reached it you are in danger of missing the valuable lessons contained in the degree. PS this is an opinion of a Co-freemason
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bod
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UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
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Post by bod on Nov 8, 2004 20:48:12 GMT
I kind of agree with Whistler - focus on your third, and enjoy it fully. However, back in the real world .. My reason for taking my Mark degree before any of the 'other' degrees was based on what I know of the Scottish system, and other readings. As part of the Scottish 'way' the Mark degree comes before the exhaltation into Chapter, also, the Mark degree is sometimes described as the 'completion of the 2nd' - in a similar way that Chapter is sometimes described as the 'completion of the third'. Mark certainly adds a huge amount to the amount you have experienced from EA to MM. Mark lodges generally meet less often than Craft lodges, so you would have a good 6-9 months prior to being advanced, even if you applied as soon as the wrapper was off your MM's apron. Books I found hlpful were Keith Jackson's 'Beyond the Craft' and also 'The Mark Degree' by David Mitchell (I think), no spoilers in either book, but both deserve a place on a masons bookshelf. Quite often the 'encouragement' you get to join Chapter is for the wrong reasons - like finding a Craft lodge, finding a Chapter to join should be a personal search, not something you feel 'conveyor belted' into doing. Personally, I am not going to look at Chapter until I am in one of the Wardens chair's - thats personal choice, but I am very, very glad I took the decision to join Mark.
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staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Nov 8, 2004 20:52:39 GMT
Bod.i am always planning and looking ahead.
as you say everyone says join chapter but i think also many join for totally the wrong reasons and maybe dont do enough research.One very experienced forumite whom i have had the great pleasure of meeting has directed me towards Mark and i a definitely have a bias towards it.
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Post by Mikepm on Nov 9, 2004 0:01:19 GMT
Staffs, Take your time, the more you join, the more you pay the more you are out, but then the misses Can have the WI round for tea & scones, while you are out. Mark after your second, and i would say join chapter when you get on the ladder in your lodge, eg: IG but with the proposed changes in chapter, it will mean you can go through the 3 chairs in chapter before your craft. saying all this, i'm in enough as it is ;D Regards Mike.
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Post by taylorsman on Nov 9, 2004 0:31:13 GMT
Mike, I could be wrong but I thought one had to be a Master Mason to be Advanced into Mark, so Lee will have to wait till after his Third, then I feel he will go into Mark then Royal Arch which is the way I did it as did Bod and for much the same reasons.
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Post by Mikepm on Nov 9, 2004 0:36:02 GMT
Isn't mark the completion of the second degree? but i'm sure your right.
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Post by Jumile on Nov 9, 2004 0:39:11 GMT
Staffs, This is something I've given thought to, as well. I liked the idea of Mark before Chapter - especially the former being the "completion of the 2nd" and the latter being the "completion of the 3rd" - but after sitting down and chatting with 3 separate past masters (from different lodges, interestingly enough), I've decided that the first side order I join will be Chapter. Part of my reason for wanting Mark first was because everyone does Chapter first. I have a contrarian streak in me, but I've since bowed (not unwillingly) to the advice of my betters. It was also said to me that UGLE prefers its Masons to take their steps in a certain order, though I've seen a number of cynical posts about this elsewhere - especially as Craft and Chapter are the two orders that UGLE control. I believe the remainder are controlled either by the Mark Masons or individually? Though I should stress that, as the respondents have also largely advised here, I'll be leaving this for a least a year after my Raising.
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staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Nov 9, 2004 8:15:54 GMT
Jumile.i too have a contrarian streak but i am not going to do what everytone else does.i never have done in my life.We need to be our own personan and find our own way.By asking the question the answers tell me thjose who are in both suggest Mark first those only in chapotert are saying that they were virtually directed that way,I have also been told that to get on in your masonic career you should follow the chapter route but different coloured aprons ar eof no consequence to me and will certainly not determine my direction in masonry
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Post by Doric on Nov 9, 2004 8:21:56 GMT
If I had my time over, I would do Mark before Chapter
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Post by taylorsman on Nov 9, 2004 8:46:07 GMT
"...but I am not going to do what everyone else does." Good for you Staffs! I am just about the biggest "bloody aginer" one can meet and the best way NOT to get me to do something is to try to pressure me into it. The advice I give to anyone is " think for yourself". Like Jumile you may seek advice, nothing wrong with that, but it is up to the Individual whether to follow or reject it. I still say wait one year after Raising. Investigate, then make up your own mind and would personally repeat my own path of Mark, then Royal Arch, whatever UGLE and some old men in dark blue Aprons may feel.
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Post by waynecowley on Nov 9, 2004 9:11:20 GMT
Personally I went Chapter first and then Mark. However, if I were able to go back to the start I would have done it the other way round for similar reasons to those outlined by bod. When I learned about the tradition in just about every other part of the world to go Mark first then I was extremely curious to learn what I had missed out on
Whilst I would not necessarily agree that Mark is the completion of the 2nd, it certainly does provide something that is missing and, for a fairly new MM contains much that would be recognisable (most of the Mark lodge officers are the same as a Craft lodge for example though there are some additional roles in Mark).
Chapter is very different. It does take a lot more thinking about and is not everyone's cup of tea. That said it is a degree that I enjoy immensely - the ceremony is particularly impressive when done well.
I would concur with what others have said. Do not rush into the additional degrees - take your time and enjoy being a MM - there is much to be learned in that degree before going forward.
Wayne
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Agent J
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On a Mission from God...
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Post by Agent J on Nov 9, 2004 7:37:56 GMT
I haven't taken Mark yet, but took Chapter as soon as I could. With hindsight, Bro Taylorsman is absolutely correct in his advice to leave it about a year - it doesn't give you enough time to let the dust settle on the 3rd otherwise. Likewise, if I had my time again, I'd probably go the Mark route first, but the plot thickens...should you then decide to go into Chapter, you'll get a lot of pressure to join RSM (Cryptic) and the Allied Degrees!
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 9, 2004 8:29:17 GMT
You Cannot join any other Order/Degree until you have been Raised to the 3rd, although in many respects Mark is the Completion of the 2nd you still have to be Raised before taking your Mark Degree.
In Scotland as I am sure most of you are aware, you take the Mark Degree after you have been Raised, you then take Chapter.
IMHO Mark should be everyones priority (note please IMHO!) because once you have been Exalted into Chapter it kind of spoils the Mark Ceremony (Those in both will know what I mean). But more importantly it deals more chronilogically with the Hiramic Legend.
One other thing it does is introduce you properly to Adoniram. The most important Name in Freemasonry. (I'll wait for comments/flak?)
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Post by symbol on Nov 18, 2004 13:17:57 GMT
Quite often the 'encouragement' you get to join Chapter is for the wrong reasons - like finding a Craft lodge, finding a Chapter to join should be a personal search, not something you feel 'conveyor belted' into doing.
I was told that i should join Chapter, but it was probably too soon ( 4 months )
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Post by symbol on Nov 18, 2004 13:36:12 GMT
Quite often the 'encouragement' you get to join Chapter is for the wrong reasons - like finding a Craft lodge, finding a Chapter to join should be a personal search, not something you feel 'conveyor belted' into doing.
I was told that i should join Chapter, but it was probably too soon ( 4 months ) The problem is that people suggest what was best for them selves, maybe not the best way for you. I think i would have liked Mark more, Chapter isnt really for me.
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Post by Lewis on Nov 18, 2004 17:34:00 GMT
Symbol.You must do what YOU feel is right and not follow the majority.It has been said before that maybe join additional degrees for the wrong reason and follow the others like sheep BAA BAA .
be your own person
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Post by Trinityman on Nov 18, 2004 19:59:50 GMT
If your time is limited and you suspect you're only going to join one side order for the foreseeable future, I would make it Chapter.
If you are sure you will probably join both, Mark is more logical to do first.
I'm not in Mark, only RA, but I have heard excellent reports about the Order. RA is quite wonderful and really a must-have IMO.
I joined RA 5 years after being raised and this was about right for me. One month is too soon but it does depend on the individual and his circumstances.
If you think you might join several Orders someone like Taylorman will be able to give a considered view on the best order for some of the others.
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Post by Proton on Dec 18, 2004 21:43:00 GMT
Staffs,
It is a very good question that you have asked. My advise to you is
Get your third degree done, and then do some visiting, see the third again this time as a visiting brother at another Lodge. In sussex , your mother province, and also if the opportunity arises in another location. I mean another EC province.
If you ask questions to senior brethren, the party line is do chapter! Others will say do Mark, instead.
It is a case of reading up about these degrees and YOU yourself deciding what YOU want to do, and do not be rushed into taking a decision. I am currently reading a book called The Mark Degree by D Mitchell, publishers Lewis Masonic. It is a good little book about this degree, and I would recommend it to anyone with an enquiring mind. Another good booklet is Beyond the Craft by K JAckson, again published by Lewis Masonic. It details all the masonic degrees and the history and officers, regalia etc. That to is worth a read! ;D
There is probably a similar book devoted to the RA.
Most MMs when they have done their third tend to be exhaulted into Chapters that are tied to their lodge. This is what I did. 8042, does not have this facility and I assume that if you were keen in wanting to join RA one would be found for you!
Interestingly, you are not alone with this matter. A newly raised brother in my mother lodge wants to progress on to another degree. Senior brethren are advising RA. But some are dropping the big hint by saying MARK instead.
Most Chapters meet 4 times per year but in Mark 3 is the norm. Remember you will be paying subscriptions, for these degrees and some Mark lodges do have LOIs. So time is also an important factor.
Hope that this helps
Proton ;D
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Dec 19, 2004 0:57:01 GMT
I tend to agree that MARK is better taken first & then HRA. Mark is a less formal step, full of meaning and reward to the true mason. A great introduction to side degrees. HRA requires more study and understanding and time to unravell all the thoughts it places inside your head.
Mark, for me was the first time I felt we could RELAX within a Ceremonial, and to this day one of the most enjoyable ceremonies to perform as Senior Deacon.
I find the HRA Advancement equally enjoyable ,but with much more intellect required. Here you need to ponder more on what occured and reseach more for its meaning, BUT that produces the most enlightening of ALL the discoveries the Craft has to offer.
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