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Post by a on Mar 19, 2007 22:21:28 GMT
www.ugle.org.uk/news/progm-speech140307.htmParticularly liked this speech. Go on get behind him and get UGLE moving forward. Particularly liked "So we have to be clear in our own minds what the purpose of Freemasonry is and what our ritual means" Could be quite stimulating for those that consider it all to be mummery. Go on get behind him. Support him. Help him turn his vision into reality. Lots of hard work ahead lads. Can help but hope that UGLE really have grasped the moment that last year gave them. Go on someone blow my bubble and tell me that no one ever pays any attention to these speeches.
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Post by maat on Mar 19, 2007 22:31:34 GMT
I like this man....
Thank you Stewart for posting the link. Have just forwarded it to my husband as well. He is editor of the local Masonic Mag.
Maat
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Post by wayseer on Mar 19, 2007 22:33:34 GMT
And The Most Hon. the Marquess of Northampton, DL, thinks what .......
If this is the best that our esteemed leaders can produce then we are indeed in serious trouble.
No wonder Brethren are heading for the hills.
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Post by maat on Mar 19, 2007 23:03:56 GMT
;D An each way bet so far...
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Post by a on Mar 20, 2007 8:22:23 GMT
Let me stick up for Lord Northampton and what he writes. The UGLE Brass are in a difficult position. They must know that they have a serious problem in their lodges, but equally must know that most of their members don't see it, and those that do tend to leave. Experience will tell them to be cautious, and probably fear moving to fast too soon. Understandable. They must also be aware that they are loosing their relative place in the Masonic world, and have been for decades now. And if being completely self-honest they must have an inkling that there is a lot of darkness kicking about, darkness which many of their members simply don't understand. They must be between a rock and a hard place. Wanting to move UGLE forward but being scared of loosing a lot of members who would find themselves outwith their comfort zones as they had to reassess what they have come to know. It is a time for UGLE to show leadership. And I bet you UGLE know it. But for as long as they fear the possibility that their members will just split and leave (hey that has been happening for some years now) they will struggle to stand up. It may be that UGLE simply has to accept that it is rapidly becoming a masonic has been. All in my personal opinion obviously. And no one can ever accuse me of not trying to help UGLE turn the corner. But when we judge Lord Northamptons speeches, remember that he is in a hugely difficult situation - remember he is talking to people, some of whom I am told hold the ritual as being mere mummery, mumbo-jumbo, a price to pay to join the club. I for one hope that things work out ok for UGLE. Just a pity that I haven't had the chance to talk to UGLE GL, for I would have stirred up so much thought that the members would probably happily follow Lord Northampton - for he would appear so "comfortable" compared to me. Anyhow give the bloke a chance. And hopefully the forthcoming GMs speech that he refers to will make a stab at reducing the ridiculing of those who wish to progress esoterically as "freaks". Do you think that i could get a job as a diplomat?
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 20, 2007 9:31:41 GMT
So Stewart where do you get the impression that no one in UGLE is following the Pro Gand Masters lead ?
Also where does the speculation on anti esotericism [ if there is such a word ] come from.
I have seen no evidence of ridicule, I have witnessed a desire to keep within bounds of common sense, but no ridicule. We have a number of research Lodges and research groups we even have University departments devoting considerable time to Masonic research. There are a large number of internet sites such as this one where you can voice your opinions. So I am at a loss to understand what more is expected.
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Post by a on Mar 20, 2007 10:06:37 GMT
Bill
Enjoy your Freemasonry.
Please stop putting words in my mouth.
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bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
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Post by bod on Mar 20, 2007 10:44:36 GMT
Bill Enjoy your Freemasonry. Please stop putting words in my mouth. He didn't put words in your mouth, you said : "some of whom I am told hold the ritual as being mere mummery, mumbo-jumbo, a price to pay to join the club." I believe thisis the bit Bill was asking you to substantiate, but I could be wrong, and no, I don't think you would make a good diplomat, you are too arrogant. I do agree with you tho, there does seem to be a gradual move towards a deeper understanding of the ritual from the 'Board of Directors' (for want of a better way of putting it) and the ProGM is the spearhead. It has often been said that is takes time to change an organisation of the size and age of freemasonry, and there are a lot of positives of late that indicate that things are moving in the right direction. But enough of that from me... One thing that jumped out at me was the last sentence from the speech: Brethren, on another subject, you should know that at the Annual Investiture the Grand Master is minded to make a positive statement about our relationship with the other long established and well known orders of masonry to which many Craft members belong. I believe this will be most welcome. AI is in April, so we don't have too long to wait to fid out exactly what this means, but I wonder if it will be in respect of the Mark and other degrees?
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 20, 2007 11:18:17 GMT
To be honest I think I have read this quite clearly., if I am misreading this then I am sure you will put me right.
I said " So Stewart where do you get the impression that no one in UGLE is following the Pro Gand Masters lead ?"
I said " I have seen no evidence of ridicule, I have witnessed a desire to keep within bounds of common sense, but no ridicule. We have a number of research Lodges and research groups we even have University departments devoting considerable time to Masonic research. There are a large number of internet sites such as this one where you can voice your opinions. So I am at a loss to understand what more is expected. "
You are entitled to your opinion Stewart, but the way you write is gives the impression that you are an authority on UGLE, which you are clearly not. I hasten to add, neither am I.
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Post by a on Mar 20, 2007 12:00:28 GMT
Have another read, it would be better to work it out than for me to point out where Bill did put words in my mouth.
Bod you saidThe UGLE Powers aren't changing Freemasonry, they are if anything changing the way that the fraternity of men who come under the umberella of UGLE, practice Freemasonry. ie they are changing UGLE, not Freemasonry.
And theirin lies a key to UGLE genuinely becoming (more of) a respected beacon throughout the masonic world. I think that if UGLE can help its members at this critical time, it will regain the respect that it has apparently lost in some parts of the wider masonic world. For even those who have little time for UGLE Freemasons will respect the sheer hard effort and Masonic work that will have gone into UGLE reemerging like a phoenix.
Not forgetting the fact than all of UGLE members will benefit enormously as well.
Sometimes the easiest things are also the most difficult.
I keep my fingers crossed.
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Post by wayseer on Mar 20, 2007 12:36:45 GMT
Stewart - I agree with your sumarisation - and I have not misread you.
I find I am torn. On one hand I see little, if anything, coming out of the collective GLs, apart from some on the Continent, that could be likened to some mere flicker of a beacon in the darkeness which you identify.
On the other hand, I have given my O to support and obey the MWGM. I would like to give that support unreservedly but find I am stymied. When I see and witness what is happening I become saddened for the fate of the Craft. At those moments I feel very much like shoving my O done the GM throat word by bleeding word. But I won't, of course.
Yes, it might be an advantage to write here and elsewhere about these problems but I have yet to see a glimmer of a crack in the superstructure. In fact, what I see is an even greater resistence by our Leaders - what could amount to a conspiracy of silence.
Our Leaders have a right to expect my support - I expect from them in return, respect - respect for the truth, respect to treated as a worthwile member, not as someone who has to pay GL dues and then retire to my pidgeon hole once again and remain out of sight until dues are ready to be collected the following year.
So I wait - wait for one Leader who will say something that is not some piece of santimonous platitude which sounds more like political propergander swept up off a politicians floor.
The problem is our Leaders - it lies no where else . And, Yes, I too think they are frightened, terrified of making some mistake - so they choose do nothing in case they 'get it wrong'.
But our Leaders put themselves in that position - it was they who put their hand up indicating they will accept the responsibility of Leadership and all that it entails. Having accepted that responsibility they must now do what their Office demands - for the sake of FM and not to hide from that most solemn and serious charge.
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Post by corab on Mar 20, 2007 12:58:00 GMT
Somebody, give that man the chain -- he deserves the top job. And this the day after I spent the evening defending the principles of the leap in the dark we ask our candidates to make. My husband never seems to tire of reiterating the need for a "6 month, pre-initiation course" to enable the candidate to better understand what he's getting into, and to give the Lodge a chance to better guard the West gate. I keep arguing the importance & significance of that leap-in-the-dark principle whilst at the same time acknowledge that he's got a pretty good idea there, but maybe the times are a-changing. Maybe, no matter how important and significant that leap in the dark may be, we ought to consider the times we live in and perhaps make adjustments. If Freemasonry is about service, then it should serve the needs of its beneficiaries, members and potentials alike. We i need to open up and show ourselves to be proud of what we are, proud of our Orders. Paraphrasing my own GM: we need to step into the daylight and show the world what we are about! S&F, Cora
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Post by corab on Mar 20, 2007 13:08:36 GMT
Wayseer, The problem is our Leaders - it lies no where else . And, Yes, I too think they are frightened, terrified of making some mistake - so they choose do nothing in case they 'get it wrong'. That is too easy. Freemasonry is ours; our privilege, our joy and our responsibility. If we find our leaders unable, for whatever reason, to fulfil their roles as we would expect them to, we need to first and foremost show empathy, get into their shoes, and try to envisage the challenges they are faced with on a daily basis; to feel the burden of responsibility weighing down on them, and to try and establish the limitations within which they necessarily must move. Secondly, having appraised all that, it is time for us to put our money where our mouth is, and act. Too many of us complain about the way our Obediences are led, and when challenged to act claim the administrative & hierarchical system is a prohibitive factor in that. SO WORK THE SYSTEM! Get to know it inside-out, back-to-front, like the back of your hand, and use it. That's what it's there for. It is no good complaining without being willing to take action when called for. There's nothing 'Free' about a Freemasonry where your voice will not be heard; your efforts not acknowledged; your care and concern swept under the carpet. Don't let it happen. Demand to be heard; demand to be acknowledged; demand the same care and concern from your leaders, whilst acknowledging that they are likely to be in possession of facts unknown to yourself. Work the system, and be heard. It can be done. S&F, Cora
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Post by naphesh on Mar 20, 2007 13:12:17 GMT
We i need to open up and show ourselves to be proud of what we are, proud of our Orders. Paraphrasing my own GM: we need to step into the daylight and show the world what we are about! S&F, Cora Why? Do you seriously want a rush of ill informed ignorant masses knocking on your door? Those that want the light will find it why expose everything about yourself, so some thankless person can abuse? Perhaps the fact that LDH really struggles for membership of its Lodges you want or feel the need to 'get some in' I prefer to wait for the right people, they will find us/you if they want it bad enough.
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Post by corab on Mar 20, 2007 13:17:54 GMT
Why? Do you seriously want a rush of ill informed ignorant masses knocking on your door? Who's talking about them knocking on our door? Not every bit of public information is about recruitment, you know. Not where I hail from, anyway; I can, of course, not speak for your Obedience.
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Post by naphesh on Mar 20, 2007 13:29:57 GMT
Do you think that i could get a job as a diplomat? I would have to agree with Bods assessment and the answer would be no! You see far too much darkness where there is none, and keep brow beating everyone until some give in and agree with you, it is not diplomacy you are good at, it is over emphasising of small things and making them seem important! Whenever someone offers constructive criticism, you either ignore it or insist on them re reading what you actually said. And then someone pops up to agree with you and hey ho off you go again. Sorry if you think I am out of order but I am not looking at this with one-eyed tunnel vision. Also this Forum is open to all so do they really care what Northampton says? If they do then perhaps they should look at all thier replies on other Topics where they state they couldnt care what UGLE does or does not do!
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Post by naphesh on Mar 20, 2007 13:31:02 GMT
Why? Do you seriously want a rush of ill informed ignorant masses knocking on your door? Who's talking about them knocking on our door? Not every bit of public information is about recruitment, you know. Not where I hail from, anyway; I can, of course, not speak for your Obedience. So why then?
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Post by naphesh on Mar 20, 2007 13:34:42 GMT
Wayseer, The problem is our Leaders - it lies no where else . And, Yes, I too think they are frightened, terrified of making some mistake - so they choose do nothing in case they 'get it wrong'. That is too easy. Freemasonry is ours; our privilege, our joy and our responsibility. If we find our leaders unable, for whatever reason, to fulfil their roles as we would expect them to, we need to first and foremost show empathy, get into their shoes, and try to envisage the challenges they are faced with on a daily basis; to feel the burden of responsibility weighing down on them, and to try and establish the limitations within which they necessarily must move. Secondly, having appraised all that, it is time for us to put our money where our mouth is, and act. Too many of us complain about the way our Obediences are led, and when challenged to act claim the administrative & hierarchical system is a prohibitive factor in that. SO WORK THE SYSTEM! Get to know it inside-out, back-to-front, like the back of your hand, and use it. That's what it's there for. It is no good complaining without being willing to take action when called for. There's nothing 'Free' about a Freemasonry where your voice will not be heard; your efforts not acknowledged; your care and concern swept under the carpet. Don't let it happen. Demand to be heard; demand to be acknowledged; demand the same care and concern from your leaders, whilst acknowledging that they are likely to be in possession of facts unknown to yourself. Work the system, and be heard. It can be done. S&F, Cora Now this I agree with
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 20, 2007 13:39:27 GMT
wayseer wrote:
I have to register my complete disagreement with this assumption. for that is what it is an assumption. You have no evidence of this so called fear. I speak to many and I detect no fear in what honest men do and say. They may get things wrong sometimes, but hind sight makes one look exstrememly clever.
They do what they think is right and in the best interets of all.
First you must make a case for , 'There is a problem' the vast majority of Freemasons in the home GL's do not believe there is a problem. Numbers if that is the concern mean little or nothing, it all started with a few and has grown to millions.
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Post by corab on Mar 20, 2007 13:54:21 GMT
Who's talking about them knocking on our door? Not every bit of public information is about recruitment, you know. Not where I hail from, anyway; I can, of course, not speak for your Obedience. So why then? To inform, perchance to debunk a few myths. Freemasonry is not a secret society, we're part of society. This whole 'Oh look at me I have a secret' attitude simply does not do.
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