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Post by Siontific on Apr 29, 2007 12:32:08 GMT
I was chatting to one of our Tylers, just before I went into the Royal Arch, and he was saying that if you want to get to the whole Masonic story, you should join Craft, Royal Arch, Mark and then the Royal and Select Masters (Cryptic Degrees). These four being the most closely linked in the Hiramic story/legend.
So I have a yearning to join the Royal and Select Masters but to do so will require joining Mark. And I know the least about Mark than other part of Freemasonry, so can anyone comment on this order?
So, while I appreciate that everyone needs to move at their own pace, and putting that observation aside, does anyone have any comment on the linking of the stories within these four? Have you joined all four and what are your experiences? Are you also considering doing this? Will the experience help in understanding Freemasonry to a greater level?
Siontific
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Post by penfold on Apr 30, 2007 10:17:07 GMT
Mark is an excellent degree - very enjoyable and a good ritual, I would personally recommend joining Mark before chapter as the Hiramic legend is then revealed in a fairly correct chronological order.
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Post by middlepillar on Apr 30, 2007 20:49:49 GMT
Siontific "So, while I appreciate that everyone needs to move at their own pace, and putting that observation aside, does anyone have any comment on the linking of the stories within these four? Have you joined all four and what are your experiences? Are you also considering doing this? Will the experience help in understanding Freemasonry to a greater level?"If you are interested in the 'Hiramic' legend within your Freemasonry then The Royal & Select Masters is a must. It comprises of 4 Degrees; Select Master, Royal Master, Most Excellent Master and Super Excellent Master. These four degrees help to fill the time between the Building of The First Temple and the Building of The Second Temple, a period of 500 years (approx). The Mark deals with the Building of The First Temple within its allegory and The Royal Arch deals with the Preperation and building of the Second Temple and of course the discovery of the Lost Word. The four degrees within R & S start just prior to the Mark Degree and finish just after The Royal Arch Degree, so you can see it is quite an important Order if this is where your interest lies! I have been lucky enough to of been through 'The Chair' in all of these orders and I can say that with the Installation ceremonies included they truly complete the Hiramic legend and I would recommend them to you. The fact that you have already been Exalted wont take too much away from the Mark Ceremony apart from the fact that you will know the importance of something you hold from the beginning! I will also state that in my opinion the Ceremony of The Royal Master Degree is perhaps the finest piece of ritual within Freemasonry, and please trust me I do not say that lightly! Whatever you decide, good luck. S & F
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Post by maat on Apr 30, 2007 22:56:46 GMT
The Mark deals with the Building of The First Temple within its allegory and The Royal Arch deals with the Preperation and building of the Second Temple and of course the discovery of the Lost Word. Hi Si I can't access Royal and Select Masters so must remain silent, but I can assure you that what Middlepillar says above re the Mark and Royal Arch is very true in the esoteric sense as well as the biblical sense. Mark will be the degree that will help raise you up when you are at your lowest, put more fuel in your tank and give you the courage to be yourself (which is when you start to Know Your Self.) Ma.at
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Post by Siontific on May 1, 2007 17:17:17 GMT
Thanks for your comments everyone. I had been put off Mark at one stage but was finding my interest rekindled and then along came someone talking about the Royal and Select Masters and I thought there must be a good link here. Well, looks like next stop Mark and then we will see what happens.
And how are you Ma! Haven't had a chat for ages.
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Post by maat on May 1, 2007 22:35:45 GMT
I know... and I was really pleased to see your name pop up again! Mark, from my experience, was one of those degrees that sneak up on you. I thought it was a bit ho-hum to start with, but all these years later I can now truly appreciate its value and teaching. It is the degree that most springs to mind when the most difficult decisions are to be made When you join please let us know your first impressions. How is my good old S'norbins going? Ma
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staffs
Administrator
Staffs
Posts: 3,295
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Post by staffs on May 2, 2007 6:52:39 GMT
Mark also crept up on me also and i hasd wondered why so may distinguished brethren one of their favourirte degrees.
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Post by JulesTheBit on May 4, 2007 10:09:38 GMT
Mark also crept up on me also and i hasd wondered why so may distinguished brethren one of their favourirte degrees. Interesting Staffs. in my mother province we have some very distinguished brthren who are not in Mark at all, let alone regard it as their favourite. Takes all sorts .... JS
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Post by middlepillar on May 4, 2007 23:04:59 GMT
Mark also crept up on me also and i hasd wondered why so may distinguished brethren one of their favourirte degrees. Interesting Staffs. in my mother province we have some very distinguished brthren who are not in Mark at all, let alone regard it as their favourite. Takes all sorts .... JS Julian If they have not experienced The Mark Degree they could hardly have it down as a favorite could they? Or am I missing something? Surely it is an irrelevance as they are not in it? It is as absurd as me commenting on one of your favorites, (The Shriners) I am not a member so how could I possibly know whether it would be a favorite of mine? I can of course say it doesnt appeal to me and that is about as fair as I can be, however not being a member I couldnt possibly offer an opinion.
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Post by JulesTheBit on May 5, 2007 9:47:54 GMT
Interesting Staffs. in my mother province we have some very distinguished brthren who are not in Mark at all, let alone regard it as their favourite. Takes all sorts .... JS Julian If they have not experienced The Mark Degree they could hardly have it down as a favorite could they? Or am I missing something? Hi chris The object of my post was a comment on the introduction of "distinguished brethren" to the discussion. I was expressing my surprise that some very senior masons ("distinguished brethren") have no experience of the Mark degree. To fully appreciate the Hiramic legend one would expect "distinguished brethren" to be fully familiar with Mark, but in some case they are not. I was not commenting on "favourite" specifically. If charged with thread drift I will plead not guilty millud, "distinguished brethren" had been introduced and I felt entitled to comment on it. I agree with what you are saying, but it is not relevant to my point. Do you understand my point now? Agree, but my comment was relevant to my point above. An opportunity to plug Shriners! Thanks Chris I may run that Order in the UK, but it's not Masonic per se (does that surprise you?) and therefore you can't directly compare it with Masonic Orders. Shriners is a charitable organisation of which freemasons are members. My function in it is to be a voluntary/elected officer. It's more like a job to me. By that definition it cannot be included in the list of my favourite Masonic orders. So this time I submit that it is your point that is irrelevant. Blimey, you do go on sometimes See above for the point I was making. S&F, Jules Or YITF, Jules if I sign as a shriner
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Post by middlepillar on May 5, 2007 10:36:00 GMT
Blimey Jules and you charged me with going on! ;D You do not get more distinguished than the Duke of Kent and he is not a member! Re your point about The Shriners not being Masonic (And I am happy to plug your Noble order ;D) It is interesting you have said that, because on LRUK you have voted on your favorite Christian Order in Freemasonry, and you have stated it ranges through AASR, RCC & SRIA! Now it may only be a technicallity (I am going on!) But The SRIA is not a Masonic Order and you were happy to include it in your Post! Shriners may not be Masonic but like SRIA you have to be a Mason to be in it! I also, now you have explained your Post (see my first point) understand what you were saying, when you mentioned distinguished brethren ;D ;D Jules its always good to talk!
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Post by Siontific on May 5, 2007 13:47:42 GMT
Anyway, as I was saying, the Royal and Select Masters .................... what d'ya think? Jules/Middlepillar??
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Post by JulesTheBit on May 5, 2007 15:06:40 GMT
Anyway, as I was saying, the Royal and Select Masters .................... what d'ya think? Jules/Middlepillar?? Dragged screaming back onto topic I like cryptic a lot. The principal conductor of the work has a really wonderful piece of ritual, I'm learning it at the mo and it's right up there in my top 3 favourites. It fills a gap in the jig-saw puzzle of the Hiramic legend and the ritual is rich in symbolism. It's not a good idea to analyze it too deeply though, there are a couple of inconsistencies, especially since the recent changes to the RA ritual, which links to it. Two of the Cryptic degrees used to be worked in a different order. I've no idea why it changed, but changing it back would remove one of the inconsistencies. Hope this helps. S&F, Jules
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Post by a on May 5, 2007 15:12:36 GMT
Julian Let me grab you for a moment while you are here - please dont disappear - I will momentarily amend this post. Timing or what. Anyhow Julian, all of this ordering of orders, getting the timing sequence right, inconsistencies etc. I wonder if what is more important is that the teachings of the rituals are applied. I ask this as I respect you, and especially what you have done with meridien. Which is really what motivated this post. I have recently been guiding a Freemason who is perhaps struggling with a couple of aspects of life, and I used Masonic concepts to aid, and illustrated how by practicing the craft he would take the step that he is currently trying to take. It would appear that he may have never thought about how the ritual et all could benefit his life. Hence I wonder if selling the benefits of the orders in terms of social relevance may help some? Sorry that took a while. And you deserted me
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Post by Siontific on May 5, 2007 15:48:05 GMT
JULES! That's a bit like saying, "So, the secret to life is ... oh, damn, the kettle's boiling ...." Inconsistencies? Which other orders? I understand that the four orders; Craft, Royal Arch, Mark, Royal and Select, are not chronologically in order (I also list in the order in which I will/have discover(ed) them) however there are "inconsistencies" with many things even the "simple" history of Freemasonry. So are you talking about the chronological inconsistency or the legend each part represents? I have also been told that the ritual in the RSM is excellent but not for which degree. I like your point Stewart but then general internal education within Freemasonry is not what it should be so maybe the "wider" lesson of relevance to life is an important lesson missed by many.
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Post by a on May 5, 2007 17:41:42 GMT
It is however a lesson that I am actively teaching in the "real" world. Fortunately some branches of the Masonic family take such things very seriously, so there is hope. Even in UGLE land through the likes of Meridien (and hopefully many more than the 6 lodges that I am aware of).
[As an aside this is in my opinion the precise reason why UGLE and amity's relative position is slipping in the wider Masonic world]
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Post by middlepillar on May 5, 2007 19:14:26 GMT
Anyway, as I was saying, the Royal and Select Masters .................... what d'ya think? Jules/Middlepillar?? Siontific I posted this a long time ago; ROYAL AND SELECT MASTERSThe masonic story of King Solomon's Temple is a symbolic illustration of incidents connected with a certain secret deposited in a place which it was hoped would ensure its preservation from a prophesised catastrophe. When that prophesy materialised the secret was lost for a time but afterwards recovered. In the solomonic degrees the loss is exemplified in the third degree. The steps taken to preserve it are shown in the Cryptic degrees ( RSM ) while its recovery is explained in the Royal Arch. The cryptic degrees are based on various Jewish legends. In one such, it is stated that while the building of the Temple was in its early stages, King Solomon, realising the danger of attack by heathen powers, determined to take steps to safeguard the more important Temple treasures. To this end he ordered the construction of a vault into which the said treasures could be removed from the Sanctuary. A subterranean passage from the King's palace to a spot beneath the sanctuary was made. It was supported by nine arches and ended in a chamber or vault. Those who worked on the tunnel and vault were sworn to secrecy. After the death of Hiram Abif, certain treasures, together with a copy of the Word and the key to its pronounciation, were placed in the vault. This operation was carried out in the utmost secrecy, known only to a very limited number of persons. As a consequence knowledge of the vault gradually faded and became, in time, no more than a vague legend. In the Royal Arch Degree we learn of the recovery of the Word. Those who, realising that the Solomonic degrees are important links in the allegorical search for the Lost Word, will see that these degrees, perhaps, should be studied in chronological order. as under:- Degree Approx, date Phase 1 Mark B.C.974-967 Preparation of material & commencement of building. 2 S.M. 969-968 Building in hand and construction of the S.V 3 R.M. 968 Death of H.A: Deposition of the Word 4 M.E.M 967 Dedication of KST. 5 S.E.M 586 Destruction of KST. The Word is lost. 6 E.M 536 Rebuilding of the Temple. (Not practised in UGLE) 7 R.A 534 Recovery of the Word. Qualification to join: You must be a Master Mason, Royal Arch Companion and a Mark Master Mason. This is how it is in UGLE I think Jules is talking about the Excellent Master degree (E.M) which is not worked here. As Principal Conductor of The Work (Think Jnr Warden) there is a piece in The Royal Master Degree that is as Jules says a fantastic piece of ritual (also in my top 3!) I was lucky enough to do this in 2000 when a great friend of mine was the candidate, it is simply superb. The trouble with R & S is that you have to be in Mark & Royal Arch before you can join, so it is obviously smaller than a lot of Degrees, however it is a very important order for anyone interested in learning the complete Hiramic Legend
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Post by Siontific on May 6, 2007 12:04:39 GMT
Thanks Middlepillar.
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Post by JulesTheBit on May 7, 2007 8:54:43 GMT
Julian Let me grab you for a moment while you are here - please dont disappear - I will momentarily amend this post. Timing or what. Anyhow Julian, all of this ordering of orders, getting the timing sequence right, inconsistencies etc. I wonder if what is more important is that the teachings of the rituals are applied. I ask this as I respect you, and especially what you have done with meridien. Which is really what motivated this post. I have recently been guiding a Freemason who is perhaps struggling with a couple of aspects of life, and I used Masonic concepts to aid, and illustrated how by practicing the craft he would take the step that he is currently trying to take. It would appear that he may have never thought about how the ritual et all could benefit his life. Hence I wonder if selling the benefits of the orders in terms of social relevance may help some? Sorry that took a while. And you deserted me Hello Stewart Sorry I disappeared. I made my post and logged out immediately, not realising that you were typing at me. IMO you are spot on. Why do we have Masonic rituals? Are they just a form of mental exercise in memorising stories and repeating them parrot-fashion? Or just a form of amateur dramatics? I hope not. There's much more to it, at least for me, and for you too I guess. We should be looking at the meaning behind the ritual, and doing our best to understand it because it teaches a wealth of spiritual and moral lessons. That's what's most important. But if there are logical inconsistencies then some of those who delve into detail will notice them and might consider them intellectually wrong. Inconsistencies don't affect the message, as you say, but if they have been introduced by change then I think we should consider changing things back again. In the Cryptic degrees one of the changes has the effect that someone is explaining aspects of the temple to the bloke who designed and built it! Repeat the ritual parrot-fashion and you will never notice. Try to understand the message and the anomaly becomes more obvious, and goes against my tendency to have all my ducks in a row. It's a bigger deal to me than to most I suppose. It's the differences that make it fun, but not in that case Thanks for the kind comments re Meridian. On this occasion I will resist the temptation to drift the thread S&F, Jules Cumberlege Council R&SM
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Post by JulesTheBit on May 7, 2007 9:24:54 GMT
JULES! That's a bit like saying, "So, the secret to life is ... oh, damn, the kettle's boiling ...." Inconsistencies? Which other orders? I understand that the four orders; Craft, Royal Arch, Mark, Royal and Select, are not chronologically in order (I also list in the order in which I will/have discover(ed) them) however there are "inconsistencies" with many things even the "simple" history of Freemasonry. So are you talking about the chronological inconsistency or the legend each part represents? I have also been told that the ritual in the RSM is excellent but not for which degree. I like your point Stewart but then general internal education within Freemasonry is not what it should be so maybe the "wider" lesson of relevance to life is an important lesson missed by many. Hi Peter I chose not to explain the inconsistencies in detail because I don't like to discuss details of ritual in public. Even with spoilers it can spoil the surprise for people who want to get the experience with an open mind. Let's just say that one of the Cryptic inconsistencies was caused by the reversal of the order in which 2 of the degrees are worked. It has the effect that now someone is explaining aspects of the Temple to the bloke who designed and built it. The other was introduced by the recent changes and clarifications in the Royal Arch ritual. Those changes improved the consistency of the RA story, but introduced a problem when you compare the Cryptic & RA. It's referred to in the circular sent to all Scribes E when the recent RA ritual changes were under discussion. My presence here is a little sporadic I know, but just lately I've been very busy on a number of different things in London. I just have to share this next part ...... I've just taken over as Scribe E of Domatic RA Chapter, 177 which owns the Domatic ritual variant. We trace our history back to Lawrence Dermott (GSec of the Antients and a truly remarkable man). London masons will probably know that the storage for Lodge's & Chapters property is changing, the whole storage area is being rebuilt. What many don't know is that they're rebuilding the archive storage in the basement at GQS as well. Over the years minute books and other items have been stored in a variety of boxes and rooms down there, and it's a huge area. Professional archivists from the library & museum have done a great job on sorting it all out and labelling it up as much as they can, and now they're inviting the Lodges & Chapters involved to review what they've done and arrange for proper storage instead of the hotch-potch it had become. Last week, in a small dark room in the basement a group of 3 people were searching. One of them was me. We found the first Charter SGRAC issued to Domatic RAC (in 1819) and a Charter of confirmation confirming key dates we always claimed for our history and lineage (the ones in the Domatic ritual book). One has not been seen in living memory AFAIK, the other was unknown to any of the members. Next week 2 scribes will return to the spot with a 3rd person for an initial conservation survey. Just like masonic ritual, isn't it? The Charters are on my desk as I type this. The hair on the back of my neck stands up when I look at them. Mustn't touch. S&F, Jules
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