bod
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Women!
May 29, 2007 19:03:59 GMT
Post by bod on May 29, 2007 19:03:59 GMT
They get everywhere! I came across this while looking for some info on something, certainly puts the cat firmly amongst the pigeons! The Cathar connection Historians over the years have debated whether or not there was any truth at all to the charges against the Templars. There is some evidence of connections between the Knights and the Cathars, or Albigensians, a heretical Gnostic group which was the very first target of the inquisition. The Cathars were pious ascetics whose main offense to the Church seems to have been their acceptance of women as the spiritual equals of men. In a time when it was still a matter of debate whether women had souls, even the suggestion was beyond blasphemy. (The Templars, too, seemed to take a more positive view of women. Surviving records show many instances of women joining the Order, a practice which was discontinued by Papal order.) The Cathar’s last stand was in the mountain fortress of Montsegur. The Templars are rumored to have refused to participate in the fight, and may have assisted fleeing Cathars. (apologies to any women offended by the title....none is intended I assure you)
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imakegarb
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One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
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Women!
May 29, 2007 19:39:20 GMT
Post by imakegarb on May 29, 2007 19:39:20 GMT
Y'know, it does strike me that, throughout much of the last couple of millennium, any tradition that recognizes the equality of gender is suppressed by a tradition that doesn't. Which does make a body wonder . . . what is it about that truth that so frightens the oppressive tradition?
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bod
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UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
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Women!
May 29, 2007 19:51:35 GMT
Post by bod on May 29, 2007 19:51:35 GMT
But the truth is scarey, especially if you have power that you dont want to loose. Think of the sayings such as 'the truth will set you free', 'the first casualty of war is truth' etc
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Women!
May 29, 2007 21:24:43 GMT
Post by devoutfreemason on May 29, 2007 21:24:43 GMT
My Gnostic disipline is in the Catharic tradition. Beautiful and inspiring.
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Women!
May 29, 2007 22:26:31 GMT
Post by whistler on May 29, 2007 22:26:31 GMT
Y'know, it does strike me that, throughout much of the last couple of millennium, any tradition that recognizes the equality of gender is suppressed by a tradition that doesn't. Which does make a body wonder . . . what is it about that truth that so frightens the oppressive tradition? I just have to answer with my favourite quotation Truth All Truths are Truths of Period and not truths for eternity. What has been a truth for the time. was and is good as men are capable of receiving
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Women!
May 29, 2007 22:52:59 GMT
Post by mike on May 29, 2007 22:52:59 GMT
The Cathars were pious ascetics whose main offense to the Church seems to have been their acceptance of women as the spiritual equals of men. In a time when it was still a matter of debate whether women had souls, even the suggestion was beyond blasphemy. Hmm, well actually their heresy was their doctrine (below)! It is a bit nasty to claim that their belief in equality for women gained the death penalty for many thousands: (a) Doctrinal The Albigenses asserted the co-existence of two mutually opposed principles, one good, the other evil. The former is the creator of the spiritual, the latter of the material world. The bad principle is the source of all evil; natural phenomena, either ordinary like the growth of plants, or extraordinary as earthquakes, likewise moral disorders (war), must be attributed to him. He created the human body and is the author of sin, which springs from matter and not from the spirit. The Old Testament must be either partly or entirely ascribed to him; whereas the New Testament is the revelation of the beneficent God. The latter is the creator of human souls, which the bad principle imprisoned in material bodies after he had deceived them into leaving the kingdom of light. This earth is a place of punishment, the only hell that exists for the human soul. Punishment, however, is not everlasting; for all souls, being Divine in nature, must eventually be liberated. To accomplish this deliverance God sent upon earth Jesus Christ, who, although very perfect, like the Holy Ghost, is still a mere creature. The Redeemer could not take on a genuine human body, because he would thereby have come under the control of the evil principle. His body was, therefore, of celestial essence, and with it He penetrated the ear of Mary. It was only apparently that He was born from her and only apparently that He suffered. His redemption was not operative, but solely instructive. To enjoy its benefits, one must become a member of the Church of Christ (the Albigenses). Here below, it is not the Catholic sacraments but the peculiar ceremony of the Albigenses known as the consolamentum, or "consolation," that purifies the soul from all sin and ensures its immediate return to heaven. The resurrection of the body will not take place, since by its nature all flesh is evil. M
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Women!
May 29, 2007 23:03:19 GMT
Post by wayseer on May 29, 2007 23:03:19 GMT
Women, quite simply, were not free until relatively recently - they were owned by someone, their Father or their Husband. In some cases the brothers were responsible which is still the case in some countries. In fact, within my lifetime women could not buy a motor vehicle in their own name - the ownership had to be in joint names. Women may well still be bound by any number of 'conventions' (read, sexism) but legally they are now 'free'. So, the words of the IG that the C is 'free and of g...r.. ' can now apply to either sex. That some M still think that the Craft is for men only effectively signals their own ideas and beliefs that women are still in 'bond' to some male.
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imakegarb
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Women!
May 29, 2007 23:28:51 GMT
Post by imakegarb on May 29, 2007 23:28:51 GMT
Hmm, well actually their heresy was their doctrine (below)! It is a bit nasty to claim that their belief in equality for women gained the death penalty for many thousands Bro. Mike, I don't think anyone here actually suggested that it was this belief, alone, that scored them fire, rack and sword. For my own part, I simply took note that any tradition that *did* include this among their beliefs, in the last 2,000 years or so, seems always to be suppressed by a tradition that didn't. Also, I think we should be very, very careful when saying what any heretical group, such as the Albigenses, believed. For what we know about such, often, comes only from their murderers. And that can be very biased indeed.
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Women!
May 30, 2007 0:11:40 GMT
Post by maat on May 30, 2007 0:11:40 GMT
I love the Cathars/Albigensians! I particularly love the story that they so influenced the communities they lived and worked in that when the Church was looking for someone to lay complaint against them or their practices they could find none. Then when things got really dirty - many townsfolk chose to share their fate and die rather than return meanness for kindness. Now there are real Teachers! Re: the women bit... "Cathar Elders were called Perfecti or by the Catholic Church and known to themselves, their followers and their co-citizens as "Bons Hommes" and "Bonnes Femmes" or "Bons Chrétiens", literally "Good Men/Women" or "Good Christians." However - the Cathars believed ... "Sexual intercourse and reproduction propagated the slavery of spirit to flesh, hence procreation was considered undesirable (not taboo). Informal relationships were considered preferable to marriage among Cathar credentes. Perfecti were supposed to observe complete celibacy, and separation from a partner would be necessary for those who would become Perfecti. For the credentes however, sexual activity was not prohibited, but the creation of children was strongly discouraged, resulting in the charge by their opponents of sexual perversion. Killing was abhorrent to the Cathars; so was the copulation that produced enslavement in matter. Consequently, abstention from all animal food except fish was enjoined of the Perfecti. (The Perfecti apparently avoided eating anything considered to be a by-product of sexual reproduction, including cheese, eggs, milk and butter.) War and capital punishment were also condemned, an abnormality in the medieval age. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathar#Social_relationshipsHere we get back to the old argument that woman is the source of all evil - only because she is the means by which spirit is enslaved in matter...(guys NEVER get the blame). And women tempt (?) men. At my age I would consider that a compliment ;D Maat
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Women!
May 30, 2007 0:31:52 GMT
Post by maat on May 30, 2007 0:31:52 GMT
Which brings us back to Freemasonry .... The Will of the Master is represented by the gavel. The gavel is a Tau. The action of the gavel is a Tau in action. The Tau starts at Unity and splits into two at a base Level. The gavel is also a phallic symbol The "G" stands not for God or Geometry but for Generation. Unity is split into two, spirit and matter. The SW is feminine, the Moon, the Widow, the Strength The Master is male, the Sun, the Ruler, the Wise Together they create a thing of Beauty! We willingly walked between the Pillars of Polarity for some good reason, I would suggest, guess what we have got to do before we can exit again... ...hold hands at least. Maat. The above is a combination of things I have read or thought.... I'm not intending to be dogmatic about any of them, just points to ponder. I would also earnestly request readers/posters to treat this thread as an avenue in trying to understand the gender issue in merely philosophical terms. IT IS NOT an attack against anyone or any thing.
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Women!
May 30, 2007 8:25:27 GMT
Post by penfold on May 30, 2007 8:25:27 GMT
Wise words Ma'at
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Tamrin
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Women!
May 31, 2007 9:23:24 GMT
Post by Tamrin on May 31, 2007 9:23:24 GMT
(The Templars, too, seemed to take a more positive view of women. Surviving records show many instances of women joining the Order, a practice which was discontinued by Papal order.) With few qualifications I concur with Bro. Bod. There are many threads to and many holes in the intricate fabric of Masonic origins. One may legitimately emphasise the Calvinist legacy of the Premier Grand Lodge, and follow it back in time to mystical Protestantism and to its connections with the Waldensians and earlier Albigensians. These include the Cathars, whose survivors had sought refuge and had merged with the Waldensians in the Swiss Alps until, in the days of the Reformation, their descendants at last prevailed, emerging among the Huguenots and others. In this part of the fabric one finds Manichean, Hermetic, Kabbalistic and even Sufi traditions and here too we find traces of the Knights Templar, not so much as being a part of a single, linear line of descent but rather as having connections, familial, regional and philosophical, with a wider heterodoxical milieu. A very common element in that milieu was the involvement of women on equal terms with men.
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bod
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Women!
May 31, 2007 9:27:05 GMT
Post by bod on May 31, 2007 9:27:05 GMT
It becomes more clear to me every day that we will never really know the true origins of freemasonry, nor its make up in its original form, guess thats why we are speculative!
And thanks for the credit Bro Philip, but they are words i came across on a website, not actually my own.
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Tamrin
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Nosce te ipsum
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Women!
May 31, 2007 13:36:39 GMT
Post by Tamrin on May 31, 2007 13:36:39 GMT
It becomes more clear to me every day that we will never really know the true origins of freemasonry, nor its make up in its original form, guess thats why we are speculative! Any search for an 'original form' is bound to end in disappointment. For a more optimistic perspective, see Leo Zanelli's short article, A Pragmatic Masonic History. Bro. Zanelli stresses that the origins of Freemasonry are composite rather than monolithic and I cannot recommend this approach too highly.
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bod
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Women!
May 31, 2007 14:20:42 GMT
Post by bod on May 31, 2007 14:20:42 GMT
leo is a good writer, his works are always worth reading, that article was very interesting and a good read - thanks
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Women!
Jun 1, 2007 1:57:59 GMT
Post by keith on Jun 1, 2007 1:57:59 GMT
Have a look at the Brehon Laws of Southern Ireland, Women there had considerable equality although the "Holy Church" (Roman Catholic) described the laws as 'barbaric'!
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