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Post by leonardo on Feb 17, 2008 18:08:27 GMT
Thanks for the warning, Leo. It is merely intended for the more naive who may pass our way. To be honest I am surprised someone like Sniffles would feel such a website worthy of serious attention and discussion.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Feb 17, 2008 20:02:33 GMT
The United Grand Lodge of England is considered the Mother Lodge of Freemasonry (even though we know good and well that Freemasonry came to England from Scotland ). By who? How can it be considered the "mother lodge" when several grand lodges where in existance long before the UGLE? The UGLE is only as important as those GL's who consider them important. FYI: That is far from the entire Masonic world. Also, I was a member of the Esoteric Masons Yahoo Group a while back. And while I do not believe that they are for me, there are several great minds and dare I say good Masons there. To call them a "scam" is at best, ignorant.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Feb 17, 2008 20:06:47 GMT
This so called Grand Lodge of Ancient, Accepted and Esoteric Freemasons A.·. A.·. & E.·. F.·. is nothing more than a scam. Please read the following link for more details. Any who get involved with it are simply being taken for a ride. Be warned! www.masonicinfo.com/esotericmasons.htmMasonic Info is nothing more than a hateful self serving shiff for the mainstream in the USA. That site is not an authority on anything. There are total lies about myself on there and I have had ZERO communication with anyone from that site. Believe what you will on there but it is no more than the mainstream "National Enquierer."
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Post by leonardo on Feb 17, 2008 20:13:02 GMT
You may have a point but they are in my view on the ball with regards "Grand Lodge of Ancient, Accepted and Esoteric Freemasons A.·. A.·. & E.·. F.·. "
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Feb 17, 2008 20:23:45 GMT
"The United Grand Lodge of England is considered the Mother Lodge of Freemasonry "
Not be me it isn't! I would reckon that many other Freemasons feel the same. It' s not even the oldest Grand Lodge as it was formed in 1813, the GL of Ireland and the GL of Scotland both pre-date it. UGLE is just another Grand Lodge, albeit nearly 200 years old, and a big one, but that's all folks. Please bear-in-mind the Articles of Union, which show the UGLE to be a continuation of both the "Moderns" and the "Antients."
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Post by lauderdale on Feb 17, 2008 20:59:29 GMT
When my mother (born 1916, died 2001) and my father (born 1920 and still going strong) came together in due time they produced me, (born 1953). Now although there are genes from both parents in me, I was a new Individual and can only trace my present existence as from 4.30am on Thursday 13th August 1953 and certainly not from 1916 when my mother was born. Same goes in my eyes for UGLE, born in 1813 from the Union of the Moderns and Antients. To me of the British Grand Lodges the Grand Lodge of Ireland is oldest as it can trace continuity from the 1720s and the GL of Scotland can do likewise from the 1730s. That is of course discounting Mother Killwinning which claims to be from "Time Immemorial" but has only itself as a constituent Lodge of its Grand Lodge.
Personally I do not consider UGLE to be the Premier GL albeit it is old and large.
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Post by sniffles on Feb 17, 2008 21:27:50 GMT
Thanks for the warning, Leo. It is merely intended for the more naive who may pass our way. To be honest I am surprised someone like Sniffles would feel such a website worthy of serious attention and discussion. Brother Leo; I actually learned about this GL AA&EM from Ed's site. I didn't bring them up because I thought their "scamming" or "irregularity" was worth bringing up. I brought this organization up to see what the Masonic members in this forum thought about them and their existence because they aren't the only "Masonic" Order to give Masonic Degrees over the internet. There are others. I only desired to see if the Masons here considered these AA&EM Masons brothers? And all those other "Mason" who were "Made" via the internet... are they also Masons? We can shake our fists at them and call them a scam and irregular all we want, but I believe that a portion of Freemasonry will continue to utilize the world wide web in exactly the same way. It is only the next logical step in the deterioration of mainstream masonry. If we are willing to mutilate our oaths and rituals (as the UGLE has done) and mass raise cattle herds of Masons in a day (as some jurisdictions in the US are doing); then what makes what these "E-Masonic" Lodges activities any different? And how do we as a dwindling real world order compete with all this we see before us? The topography and landscape of Freemasonry in the future, I reckon, will look very different then what it does today.
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 17, 2008 21:32:04 GMT
With regard to Ed Kings site it is more informative to actually read what is written there than take an individuals point of view. Quote: Many (most?) mixed-gender lodges (Le Droit Humain and some Grand Orient lodges) which exist today have - as far as can be ascertained - changed some things which 'mainstream' Freemasons consider absolutely and unequivocally essential: an open Bible upon the altar when the lodge is at work, prohibition of political or religious discussions, etc. Because of this, such mixed lodges are far more removed from 'mainstream' Freemasonry. They consider themselves Masons but the large body of Freemasonry does not and very likely will not in the next century at least. www.masonicinfo.com/women.htmSo he says what I have said in the past and what is generally said, that if there were less change to the basic landmarks, it would be easier to create an atmosphere of conformity both ways. We can liken this to say Rugby, a new league is started and we decide to play with a round ball and have 28 on each side. However we want to play against the established Rugby League teams. Its the same game with the same rules, but we want to change what we think is good. Would we be surprised that the existing clubs do not wish to play against us. For a start we have we would have 15 more players. It does not mean our rugby is any less important or less worthy, its just not the same.
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Post by maat on Feb 17, 2008 22:05:21 GMT
Is there such a thing any more? It would be interesting to see a list of the various GL's and their numbers.
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Post by sniffles on Feb 17, 2008 22:08:43 GMT
Is there such a thing any more? It would be interesting to see a list of the various GL's and their numbers. Actually Maat brings up a good point. "Unmainstream" Grand Lodges out number Mainstream ones. In the US we have more unrecognized prince hall grand lodges than there are regular recognized grand lodges around the world. We're now just Understream.
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Post by maat on Feb 17, 2008 22:15:06 GMT
Re E-Masonry.... would the great Masonic minds (pre UGLE) have found the same degree of mutual support for their perilous undertakings if they had to do it via email? Think not.
Maat
PS I firmly believe that Masonry is not meant for the masses and that it's value has been diluted because of its concern for increasing/retaining membership by whatever means.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 17, 2008 22:28:26 GMT
It is merely intended for the more naive who may pass our way. To be honest I am surprised someone like Sniffles would feel such a website worthy of serious attention and discussion. Brother Leo; I actually learned about this GL AA&EM from Ed's site. I didn't bring them up because I thought their "scamming" or "irregularity" was worth bringing up. The website your are promoting is offering to make anyone who pays 35 dollars for each degree a "Freemason" without having to undergo any initiations or learn any rituals. All done on the click of a Paypal button. To some this may be seen as acceptable. To others it is nothing more than some unscrupulous character taking advantage of the many naive and gullible people out there.
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Post by middlepillar on Feb 17, 2008 22:33:02 GMT
PS I firmly believe that Masonry is not meant for the masses and that it's value has been diluted because of its concern for increasing/retaining membership by whatever means. Absolutely, and its a shame more people do not understand this.
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 17, 2008 23:09:05 GMT
Mainstream is generally accepted as in accordance with Andersons Constitutaion.
Well in fact the term 'mainstream' is a fairly new term, it has been brought about by the constant argueing over the term 'regular' and 'irregular' and 'clandestine'.
So having managed to get the Masonic Main Groups to accept the term 'mainstream' are we now going to see another campaign against the word they have changed to ? The problem with asking for more and more changes eventualy the changer says to the changee, thats enough no more change, we will stick with what we have.
This of course has been the cause and effect behind the re-surgence of the 'hardcore' Freemasonry in the US.
well I dont think that is accurate but none the less, it should be pointed out that they are not recognised by the 'mainstream' Prince Hall Lodges. Most do not understand the schisms within Prince Hall Freemasonry. But only refer to the divide between the Black and White.
Well I do not agree, Freemasonry should be made available to all who wish to participate, in whatever way they wish to.
Regular, irregular, mainstream or whatever. If the argument stands that I have no authority to say who or who is not a mainstream Freemason then the same argument applies to all of you. Who amoung you will cast the first stone.
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Post by middlepillar on Feb 17, 2008 23:27:07 GMT
Well I do not agree, Freemasonry should be made available to all who wish to participate, in whatever way they wish to. Regular, irregular, mainstream or whatever. If the argument stands that I have no authority to say who or who is not a mainstream Freemason then the same argument applies to all of you. Who amoung you will cast the first stone. But thats the beauty of these Forums isnt it? We can disagree! And in answer to your question, Who would cast the first stone, I would be happy to, and it might just surprise you who those first stones would be at! Bottom line for me Bill is that there are many members of our Fraternity/Brotherhood who are not fit to be members of it. Whilst I agree it should be open for everyone to approach it does not mean it is suitable for them or them for it. And maybe that is one of the biggest failures we are experiencing at the moment, our filtration system need work on it!
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 17, 2008 23:39:09 GMT
Then if you are prepared to cast the first stone, I must assume you are without sin.
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Post by hollandr on Feb 18, 2008 0:21:32 GMT
I suppose that it hardly needs commenting that humans come out of the body at night and congregate for various purposes including spiritual.
Thus humans (including children) may participate in lodgework at night.
It may be possible therefore that E-Masonry enables physical world interaction between brethren that otherwise meet only out of the body
Cheers
Russell
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Post by maat on Feb 18, 2008 1:03:38 GMT
Then if you are prepared to cast the first stone, I must assume you are without sin. ;D I think you are a saint MP - you too Bill. ...Schools are organised into specific groups, according to age, subject matter, ability among other things. You will not find an illiterate 15 year old in Yr 2 reading class nor will you find him in the Yr 12 physics class. Which is good because he is probably brilliant with his hands/art/music and will find his own special group where he will be happy and excell. ...Sports teams are organised into specific groups according to age, sport, ability etc You would not find a 10 year old or a tennis player in a premier rugby team. If they applied you would probably turn them down for obvious reasons. (And if you decided everyone should be able to join you would soon find that you would have to lower the standard to accommodate everyone.) ...Did Jesus make anyone, who asked, his disciple? Or did he recognise certain qualities in some which made them ready for the inner or secret teachings with no need for parables. Fairy tales. oooops ;D just shot myself in the foot there.... Jesus was selective.... Jesus also used stories/allegories to teach the masses.... Bumma - now I am confused.. Maat
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Post by maat on Feb 18, 2008 1:05:59 GMT
Which reminds me of a post made a year or two ago about the first three degrees being a filter system for the more advanced degrees...
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Feb 18, 2008 5:43:57 GMT
I'm not sure it matters as I don't think getting at the truth is the point of this so much as justifying the unjustifiable but . . .
In my lodge, there is an open Bible upon the altar.
I'm not aware of any prohibition on political or religious discussion.
I am well aware that the "real" reason for not recognizing Co-Masonic lodges in the US is because of an hysterical and utterly unfounded fear that doing so will, somehow, mean women will have to be admitted to Male-Only lodges. This is the only reason. Not the above stated. Despite my full understanding, I thought, for the sake of helping Bro. King "ascertain" the truth, that I'd mention it.
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