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Post by Doric on Dec 27, 2004 13:09:41 GMT
Doric, What everyone is saying that it is much better to pour your own wine. In Brighton you buy your wine separate and if you have a few guests you look after them yourselves and pour theirs.Not too hard to do. Staffs I quite understand what everybody is saying, and I disagree. I have been brought up that it is not considered appropriate to place a bottle of wine or beer on a dining table. It is acceptable for the wine to be decanted, however. Now I had no control over my upbringing, it's just the way it was. In addition, some of the posters here are coming over that it is beneath their dignity to wait on others. At Christmastime and on other occasions, Senior Officers in the British Army wait on the other ranks. It is not beneath the dignity of such men. And Taylorsman, as to your barbed comment about whether I could turn the water into wine, I'm quite sure that the last person to perform that miracle wouldn't have found it beneath his dignity to serve his Brothers either. I'll remind you of a small part of our Ritual:- "and although distinctions among men are necessary to preserve subordination, yet ought no eminence of situation make us forget that we are Brothers, for he who is placed on the lowest spoke of fortune's wheel is equally entitled to our regard, as a time will come - and the wisest of us knows not how soon - when all distinctions save those of goodness and virtue shall cease, and death, the grand leveller of all human greatness, reduce us to the same state" So if you think it's derogatory to your dignity to wait on others, I humbly beg to suggest you re-examine your thinking, get off your pompous asses, and serve the wine!
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Dec 27, 2004 13:16:39 GMT
Doric ,yes what a nic epiece of ritual from Ex Wt and one i have just learnt. Well wine in decanters ? Public school or services i should think.
We were lucky to have glasses toi drink it from in my house if we were ever lucky to get wine in the first place . Normally a sip of it with the bread and dripping.
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 27, 2004 14:05:25 GMT
".....At Christmastime and on other occasions, Senior Officers in the British Army wait on the other ranks. It is not beneath the dignity of such men."
That is precisely why I NEVER attend the Xmas Dinner at my place of work. The Managers there have adopted this practice, which is out of place in Civvy Street, which many ordinary Workers, myself included, find hypocritcal and patronising and a detraction both from the Dignity of the Manager (or in the military case the Officer), and that of the Worker (or Enlisted Man). For the record my Father, a Sergent Pilot in the RAF in WW2, also hated this custom but but being under Orders had no choice but to attend Xmas Dinner in the Mess.
I agree with the majority that Stewards serving wine at Festive Boards is an anachronism, especially where paid waiting staff who do this as their job are available, and I have often sat with high ranking Brethren etc who are only too happy to have a couple of bottles of wine on the table in front of them and pour it for themselves.
I applaud those Lodges which if they still DO have Stewards appoint them only as a formality and do not expect them to be Wine Waiters, but I can see that this is yet another point where Doric and I have a totally different take on Matters Masonic.
There is a further point which I feel needs to be amplified. Most of my generation those in their early to mid 50s and certainly those below were fortunate as I was NOT to have National Service imposed upon them, so the Military Ethos is alien, even unacceptable to many of us. Moreso to those of the generation who are or would have been our sons. So ideas such as having to serve wine and for that matter sell raffle tickets after paying good money for a meal and inviting guests, in an organisation which is expensive to join in any event, are unlikely to appeal to the very men we need to attract into Membership. I have served wine when called upon , but do not like doing so as I consider it unneccessary. I understand the Scots with their simpler "Harmony" of a drink and a pie or buffet don't have this problem as the food and drink for what they would call a "purvey" is provided and you help yourself after the Meeting.
I can see that a lot of the attitudes and customs at Festive Boards did arise from that large group of men who joined The Craft post WW2 but by the nature of things these Brethren are fading away now and we must adapt these non Ritual matters to modern customs and practices.
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Post by middlepillar on Dec 27, 2004 16:07:16 GMT
Guys Can we just agree to differ? As I have already said I think being a Steward is a great job, especially early on in joining (either initiation or joining a side order). But I can also see and partly agree with the point hat has been made (Why should food get cold so as to serve the wine!). Staffs in my Lodge in London our dining cost is £45.00 plus a share of an open bar which normally runs at £17.00 per member plus equal share of guests (if I take 2 for instance the bar bill will be 3 x £17.00). Doric, although again I partly agree with you in this I think if Wine is purchased by individual diners I feel that there is absolutely no need for it to be sreved by stewards. So lets stay with our individual traditions and agree to disagree! I am sure a good festive board doesnt depend on the quality of the service only the quality of the company, and I am sure if we all sat down to eat, the company would be just great! ;D
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Dec 27, 2004 16:45:30 GMT
And this indeed goes to show the differences in lodges when visiting. i visited Royal Brunswick lodge and dining costs cover meal ,wine and drinks before the FB.
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Post by Two Ton Ted on Dec 27, 2004 17:19:47 GMT
The reason the Stewards serve wine is because it's bloody rude to place a bottle on the table, and therefore only Stewards should have access to wine. I frequently act as Steward in Lodges I'm visiting when there are too few of them appointed & present. It's a brilliant way to get to speak to every one. And anyone who thinks that the office of Steward is beneth them or should be banned, is nothing short of a pompous ass. The PGM in at least 2 Provinces hold the Office of Steward in private Lodges, and carries out those duties well/ Doric is right, the office of Steward is an important one. It is the start of a long progression to KSC as we all know. An aspect of Freemasonry is to make good men better. That is what we often say. Some may see serving drinks and attending on the Fesive Board as beneath them. And it could be seen as that, but to look at it another way, we came into Freemasonry poor and penniless and one of the main teachings is 'humility'. You'll not find 'how to be humble' in a book. It's a barrier that in some cases you have to push yourself through in order to do it (in some cases). It's about character building and it is not meant to be easy and it is not. It is a great test of character, if a mason does not want to do that, he is free to walk if he feels it's beneath him. Also, to answer a point Staffs made with reference to Offices a Steward may have to fill at short notice for a night, it depends on the custom of the lodge. In both of my Craft lodges, it is up to and including SW. And one night I had to do it. It was that night, a long time ago now, that made me realise I better start reading my book a bit quick. I hope no-one gets caught out like I did, now that WAS humiliating! Regards to all TTT
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 27, 2004 19:31:59 GMT
TTT we will beg to differ about Stewards and Stewarding, but can you clarify one point for me. I thought that a Junior Brother be he a Steward or whatever could, if called upon and capable, fill the Offices up to SD, and I have also seen Juniors act as ADC, Chaplain and Tyler, but I didn't think they could act as a Warden unless they had been appointed as such in a Regular Lodge?
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 27, 2004 22:02:44 GMT
We might meet sometime. An old friend of mine is a PM in Sarum Lodge and I have been there as his guest.
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Post by Two Ton Ted on Dec 27, 2004 22:48:05 GMT
We might meet sometime. An old friend of mine is a PM in Sarum Lodge and I have been there as his guest. I've sent you an email brother. If it does not reach you tell me and I'll make sure it does. TTT.
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Post by Doric on Dec 28, 2004 0:07:20 GMT
There is a further point which I feel needs to be amplified. Most of my generation those in their early to mid 50s and certainly those below were fortunate as I was NOT to have National Service imposed upon them, so the Military Ethos is alien, even unacceptable to many of us. Moreso to those of the generation who are or would have been our sons. So ideas such as having to serve wine and for that matter sell raffle tickets after paying good money for a meal and inviting guests, in an organisation which is expensive to join in any event, are unlikely to appeal to the very men we need to attract into Membership. I have served wine when called upon , but do not like doing so as I consider it unneccessary. I understand the Scots with their simpler "Harmony" of a drink and a pie or buffet don't have this problem as the food and drink for what they would call a "purvey" is provided and you help yourself after the Meeting. I can see that a lot of the attitudes and customs at Festive Boards did arise from that large group of men who joined The Craft post WW2 but by the nature of things these Brethren are fading away now and we must adapt these non Ritual matters to modern customs and practices. I did not have National Service thrust upon me, and I earned my Commission from the other Ranks. I have it therefore, as both a volunteer, and from both sides of the coin. Steve, we will have to agree to disagree on this. I feel that the role of Steward, in terms of serving wine is a great leveller, and it allows us to meet more people over dinner than we would otherwise. These facts alone make it all worthwhile.
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 28, 2004 7:35:49 GMT
Yes, we have a totally different mindset on this matter.
I have to say that I wonder about "meeting so many other people while serving wine" etc. I have found that the Steward is often treated with scant consideration and that the Brethren he is serving certainly do not engage him in conversation, but merely ask him to serve them Red or White or even just point to their glass. He does miss out in speaking to his invited guests and the people around him at the table.
Yes, we will beg to differ on this. I have always considered Stewards actually serving wine at FB as a servile anachronism and am glad that practice seems to be dying out in Lodges etc in my area (Home Counties, London and the South East).
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bod
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Post by bod on Dec 28, 2004 9:19:01 GMT
....I earned my Commission from the other Ranks. A Rupert by any other name would smell as sweet...... Must be a pongo thing, there are stewards in the Navy who serve you your meal, etc. Employed especially for that role, like waiting staff if you like, and the wine was quite often left on the table rather than being served. It is also a generational thing, I don't always expect a waiter to pour the wine after the first glass - some do, some don't. Keep the role of steward, but let go of the serving wine thing. Or should we also go back to the practice of having initiates pay for the f/b for everyone?
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 28, 2004 10:02:18 GMT
"...Or should we also go back to the practice of having initiates pay for the f/b for everyone? "
Not to mention supplying each Brother with a new pair of white gloves, as was once the case.
A good compromise, Bod, the position of Steward does give the newish member the chance to take part in the Ritual if a Junior Officer is missing, but let's can the Wine Waiter, and for that matter, Ticket Salesman roles at the FB.
Another point is that some of us like more wine than others, or a different wine to that usually served. I only drink white and I like a sweeter wine , and some of the house whites served at Lodges which have wine inclusive of the meal are frankly like "cat's p**s" and I would rather go without than have to drink it. Letting Brethren buy their own wine , (or other drink instead), means they get what they like, as much as they like, and the cost can go totally towards a better meal and of course the Stewards do not then have to serve the wine, letting them enjoy their meal with their Guests.
Like Bod, once the first glass has been poured by a waiter, I prefer to serve myself when dining out. As he says it may be a generational thing, although I will be 52 next year and am no "young lad". Also we must bear in mind that when some of the older Lodges were formed the Brethren may have come from a socio-economic class which still had servants, a situation which is a rarity these days.
To be honest, when I attend a Festive Board as a guest I am delighted when my host tells me that "we buy our own wine separately" as then I can enjoy what I like with my meal , and I know that some poor sod won't be bobbing up and down to fill my glass, but will also be enjoying his meal. Never fear then Doric, you WONT be likely to see me at an FB in the West Midlands!
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Post by Late Knight Chemist on Dec 28, 2004 15:03:54 GMT
Steve,
Please, please do not visit the West Country. You would surely have a heart attack on seeing the stewards serve the meals.
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bod
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Post by bod on Dec 28, 2004 15:17:38 GMT
But there isn't a problem with that if the meal isn't in a professionaly catered establishment. Hiring waiting staff if the meal is provided in a hall is expensive, and I could understand the DIY approach then, but if you've already got people busying themselves with dishing out the food, why not let them pour the wine too?
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 28, 2004 18:14:53 GMT
Exactly Bod!
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Post by skeandhu on Dec 29, 2004 22:59:49 GMT
Stewards, waiters etc. When one reaches the position of master of the lodge, it is important that he has experienced every office beforehand. The office of steward is as important as any other, even if he doesn't do much in lodge, his duty is to assist the JW which is done at the FB. An unselfish attitude is an asset in this particular office. We all had to do it and we should be not only happy but proud to have the opportunity to serve our brethren.
skeandhu
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 30, 2004 7:06:02 GMT
On that tack we are told at Installations that the JW is "ostensible Steward of the Lodge". I have yet to see one serving wine or taking that much interest in the Visitors who are usually looked after by their hosts, and once when a lone Visitor had to be proved an experienced PM took him aside and satisfied himself as to his being genuine, not the JW.
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