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Post by whistler on Dec 22, 2004 7:48:55 GMT
I emailed a friend asking for local help re the January Lecture I received this reply I can't help you much about the 2005 lecture as it is with the English Constitution & I am in the N.Z.Constitution. However try this for more info. dgl-ninz@xtra.co.nz I wish you luck.This is the e-mail for the English ? at the Ellerslie Masonic Centre Even if the gender issue is too great at the moment - couldn't all "Regular Masons" just be Freemasons. My comments aren't in anyway directed at my friend just the system Why can't all Malecraft Freemasons in New Zealand, United States, U.K> Australia and more be as ONE, Is a man any less or more of a Freemason if he belongs to the English rather than the New Zealand Constitution
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Dec 22, 2004 8:28:50 GMT
Whistler, We all all freemasons and have the same ideals but sometimes higher forces prevail to stop us all joining as one. The compasses however do kep us in due bound and particulary brethren
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 22, 2004 8:29:02 GMT
As far as I am aware , Whistler, the NZ and English (Male) GLs recognise each other.
Regarding Female and Co - Masonry and the problems of Intervisitation etc, it will take a long time to resolve these as things now stand but I can't see why for something like a Lecture of this nature and the given the subject matter thereof there could not be a mixed Meeting. After all no Ritual will be performed, so the Lecture could be given if needs be in a hall, not a Temple.
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Dec 22, 2004 8:30:06 GMT
I fully agree Steve and what an opprtunity to knock a few bricks out the wall.
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 22, 2004 9:16:41 GMT
Lee, I think that hits the nail on the head.
As I see it we have 3 choices . 1 Do nothing at all and hope things go on as they always have, 2 The most radical, to allow complete Integration (likely to cause great disruption to say the least!)
3 A Compromise which would relax some of the prohibitions of joint activities with Co-Masons, as an example allowing a Lecture such as that mentioned to be delivered to a mixed audience in one of the Rooms of a Masonic Centre, the Grand Dining Hall at Brighton comes to mind, but not at an actual Meeting of a Lodge nor in a Temple.
By his good work on the other Forum Bro Whistler has caused me to alter my own position to one of being a lot more relaxed about Co-Masonry and no longer perceiving it as a threat to the more conventional Male Only Freemasonry to which most of us who post here belong.
No, before anyone asks, I have NOT attended a Co-Masonic Meeting nor invited a (Male) Co-Mason to any of mine but only because I am expressedly forbidden from doing so and would probably be expelled if I did so and was discovered. Otherwise, I would not have a problem if the man in question had been properly Initiated etc anymore than I would have difficulty in inviting a Scandanavian Freemason who's system is quite different to ours. The Rules are however against Intervisitation of Ritual Meetings and as I always about any Rules or Laws, I don't have to agree with them , and some I don't, but I DO have to OBEY them!
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bod
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Post by bod on Dec 22, 2004 12:48:50 GMT
Whistler - from the info I have on the lecture it appears it is open to ALL - mason, non-mason, plumber, baker, candlestick maker, etc. I suspect what your friend was saying is that he didn't have any info and to contact the people organising the event, as far as I know the NZ constitution is the only one recognised in NZ, and the English constitution doesn't exist as a seperate entity within the geographical boundaries of NZ.
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Post by Jumile on Dec 22, 2004 13:27:48 GMT
To clarify for whistler... As I understand it - speaking of "regular" Freemasonry only - the multiple Grand Lodge situation exists to ensure each GL is master of its own domain. That is, the GL of Arizona is master of AZ, the GL of Scotland is master of Scotland, and the GL of New Zealand is the master of Aoteoroa. There is no international governing Masonic body (despite what the loonies keep saying). Each area's GL is the ultimate authority. GLs do often recognise other GLs (but that is not always a two-way recognition). So we have it that, according to the relevant page on the UGLE website, UGLE recognises the Grand Lodge of New Zealand. That is, they have Masonic ties and - assuming all correct protocols are followed - a member of one GL can masonically visit a lodge in the other GL's jurisdiction. There exists also another situation... overseas/district GLs. That is, UGLE has UGLE lodges outside its domain of England and Wales, where there may also be a recognised GL. New Zealand is one such place: in addition to there being GLNZ, there are also 37 UGLE lodges in NZ. If I understand it correctly, any UGLE Mason may visit any of these lodges directly without first having to go through UGLE, just as if they were visiting a lodge in England or Wales. It may seem confusing, though I'm told there's good reason for it. Not had that reason provided yet, but I'm hopeful...
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bod
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Post by bod on Dec 22, 2004 14:37:01 GMT
Thanks for clarifying that Jumile. I suspect it is a historical thing, old country and all that...
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Post by whistler on Dec 22, 2004 17:57:03 GMT
Taylorman, I wasn't thinking of the Comason situation- I accept and understand the current situation. I was reacting to the apparent gulf between the English and NZ Male Craft Constitutions. Jumile thank you for your explanation, I can certainly see the history. It is from the mind set of one living in a country of 3.5 million people and 70 million sheep , it seems a pity that alll Male Freemasons in New Zealand couldn't join together and be as one ;D
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bod
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Post by bod on Dec 22, 2004 18:14:41 GMT
D'oh - it's not like that whistler. Both constitutions are in amity and can intervisit, I imagine that a long time ago someone said 'we should have our own NZ GL' and some others said 'nah, we want to stay UGLE as thats what we have always been'. hence the present situation. I'm sure if you look at the GL of NZ website they will have info on the history and formation of the GL - then we can all stop speculating.
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Post by whistler on Dec 22, 2004 23:27:36 GMT
D'oh - it's not like that whistler. Both constitutions are in amity and can intervisit, I imagine that a long time ago someone said 'we should have our own NZ GL' and some others said 'nah, we want to stay UGLE as thats what we have always been'. hence the present situation. I'm sure if you look at the GL of NZ website they will have info on the history and formation of the GL - then we can all stop speculating. Thanks Bod....now is it true that your Cricket team, might just be able to beat them peskie Aussies Next Door ;D
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bod
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Post by bod on Dec 22, 2004 23:50:53 GMT
Wales is playing Australia in the cricket?
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Post by Jumile on Dec 23, 2004 1:25:00 GMT
Oi, them Poms won't be whupping us Aussies anytime soon, rest assured on that, miladdo. (Blatantly ignoring bod's sheep-friendly origins, of course). ;D Had to say it was great sitting at The Oval in September with thousands of ex-pat Strines and Kiwis, watching a beautiful drubbing of NZ. Was a joy to behold. As a holder of two passports, people occasionally ask me what nationality I consider myself. It's not something I give much thought to, not even when a couple of near-miss job interviews would have required surrendering one of them. But as atarnaris pointed out over a pint on our last lodge visit together (Bod's, I believe), when it comes to cricket I'm firmly behind Australia. You can take the boy out of Perth...
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Post by whistler on Dec 23, 2004 2:37:22 GMT
Jumile, I also hold two passports. the system is silly with both my Grand parents born in NZ, my father was born in Scotland ( It was a Long Honeymoon), having a European and a NZ Passport, gives one lots of travel options Your Aussie Cricketers better have some depth with most of the team over 30....
BTW do you have the traditional shackle marks around your legs ;D ;D ;D
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sarge
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Post by sarge on Dec 23, 2004 5:54:30 GMT
Thanks Bod....now is it true that your Cricket team, might just be able to beat them peskie Aussies Next Door not a chance sarge from sunny Australia
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Post by whistler on Dec 23, 2004 7:19:22 GMT
Thanks Bod....now is it true that your Cricket team, might just be able to beat them peskie Aussies Next Door not a chance sarge from sunny Australia Have a good Festive Season Sarge
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