staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Dec 27, 2004 12:29:57 GMT
Agetr seeing National treasure and my post about only two degrees being conferrred 200 years ago when was the third degree started and why did it originate. Is this different in other countries ?
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 27, 2004 12:52:43 GMT
Lee, I will have to do a bit more research but from Bernard E Jones "Freemasons Guide and Compendium" it would seem to date from the 1730s although some Lodges did have it earlier and a few others persisted with only 2 Degrees, EA and FC for some time.
If some other Brother has more concise details about the Origin and onset of the Third Degree as we know it I'm sure we would all be glad to have them
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staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Dec 27, 2004 13:06:37 GMT
This would be very interesting information for future use and knowledge
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Post by rich9999 on Jan 3, 2005 4:05:51 GMT
What is also interesting is that the Mark Degree compliments the fellowcraft (2nd) degree not the MM (3rd) degree.
William Preston, rearranged the fellowcraft degree ritual, maybe it was split up to produce the 3rd degree.
Just some thoughts!!
RichN
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 3, 2005 10:15:48 GMT
Rich, that ties in with my own reading about this. Part of the reason that the Second Degree, at least in most UGLE Rituals, seems so flat compared to the First and Third, (the latter itself a watered down version compared to that in Scotland and elsewhere), is that the Third may have been hived off from the Second as you say.
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Post by rich9999 on Jan 3, 2005 12:48:03 GMT
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Post by freimaurer45 on Jan 6, 2005 1:54:39 GMT
It could also be that the MM was only given those ascending to the East as a qualifier to their "exaltation" to the H.R.A. after assuming the title of I.M. or P.M.
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 6, 2005 8:26:47 GMT
That's what I have read.
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Post by mrmason on Jan 6, 2005 22:01:25 GMT
Not that this proves there was an early third degree but in the 1712 minutes of the Dumfries Lodge now Dumfries Kilwinning No 53 it is stated that when Francis Maxwell of Tinwald was admitted, the lodge "had been easie to him in respect of his quallity"
This suggests that there was horseplay during the ceremonies much like our Scottish third degree now. This may prove that there were in fact only one or two degrees conferred in the early years and that the third was indeed a break off from the regular workings of the early lodges.
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Post by hollandr on Jan 9, 2005 11:59:03 GMT
According to the Alice Bailey writings the three degrees constitute a landmark because the lodge structure is modelled on the Lodge on Sirius which is our real Grand Lodge being the source of the Widow Isis.
My own experience supports this.
You can see also the 1, 2 and 3 steps leading to the chairs of the JW, SW and Master and they reasonably correspond to the degrees - especially as in the better rituals (my view) the candidate is receives primary instruction from those officers progressively through the 3 degrees.
But I am unable to say how the 3rd degree re-emerged in recent times.
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ruffashlar
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Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
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Post by ruffashlar on Jan 24, 2005 14:53:26 GMT
According to Alice Bailey [...] the lodge structure is modelled on the Lodge on Sirius which is our real Grand Lodge being the source of the Widow Isis.
Russell,
Alice Bailey may be respected in some quarters, but she does come out with these killer one-liners which, frankly, have even less foundation in reasonable supposition than the collaborative ravings of Knight & Lomas.
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Post by a on Jan 24, 2005 15:35:27 GMT
Ruff
As I understand matters Alice bailey is taken very seriously in some Freemasonic quarters. But all that I can talk about is my own experience.
Sirius is somewhere that is very close to my heart. It has taken me years to understand certain aspects of my life, and apart from my own internal work, three things have helped me in my understanding. One certain Freemasons who have gently guided me over the past few years, and secondly and more recently the writings of Alice Bailey which Russell introduced me to. While I have only read a small part of her writings, so far, I can tell you with absolute certainty that some of what is written not only explains what I already know but helps me put certain issues into perspective. Now if I had read her work five years ago I would most probably be very skeptical, but specifically re Sirius being the home of Freemasonry, well you never know. It could just be true. But then again my own personal feelings for Freemasonry are very closely connected to my feelings for Sirius, (the both feel like home) so I am biased.
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ruffashlar
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Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
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Post by ruffashlar on Jan 24, 2005 17:48:26 GMT
stewart,
Hiya, mucker.
While I am controlling my impulses (quite well, considering) to run out of the Addams house shrieking "They're all a load of bloody loonies!", I really can't seriously talk about an extra-terrestrial origin for FM. You've seen what a slavering wildman I turn into at the mention of the [glow=red,2,300]Egyptian Heresy[/glow]. What? Little green dogs from outer space?? Leave it out, John!
Not only is there no proof, there isn't a reasonable suspicion. Hell, it isn't even a good fun idea - which at least the Egyptian and Atlantean origin theories are.
Sorry, but it's the Masonic principles: it should be true; but if it can't be true, at least it should hang together like a good story; and failing that, everyone should certainly be able to enjoy it.
One of the reasons, BTW, that after-dinner speeches should IMHO be declared unMasonic. ;D
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Post by whistler on Jan 24, 2005 18:02:41 GMT
Stewart, Don't dispair at Ruff's earthed opinion.. I suspect he also belongs to the Skeptic Society Your feelings are call instinct. I am happy to agree with you, regarding ET origins - Remember there are many different levels of conciousness - With planet earth being such a tiny speck in the universe the sum total of our knowledge is just as tiny a speck in the wisdom of the cosmos. Even the distance for Sirus to Earth is a tiny journey in the scale of the Universe - What is possible will never be only that, which is written in text books. \ To Quote Hubert " "todays' wild imaginings are tomorrows' realities"[
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Post by a on Jan 24, 2005 18:08:04 GMT
Ruff
You have me is stitches, I wish that I could get you on prescription.
I can only relate what I feel and to me, Freemasonry, Ancient Egypt and Sirius are closely connected in my heart. But they are three distinct entities, even though there are bonds that link them (like my feeling of home).
Let me try to explain:-
1. Freemasonry, - well I do feel like I am coming home here (but I dont like all that I see). 2. Ancient Egypt - well my journey to where I am today (Masonically) started there. Also as I climbed the Grand Gallery and entered the Kings Chamber, I felt quite at home. 3. Sirius. Until a few years ago Orion was what grabbed me, but it is now Sirius.,Been facinated by the stars since childhood. Sirius now also feels like home.
Three distinct entities, but all of which share a similar place in my heart.
The romantic in me would love to think that they are all connected and there is meaning.
The Devil in me would like to see your reactions.
BTW love what you did with Egyptian Heresy. I would love to see you in a room with some Freemasons that I have met - their Lodges are named after Egyptian Dieties.
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Post by a on Jan 24, 2005 18:30:57 GMT
Whistler
Thank you.
There was a time when I knew what I knew, but I didn't understand it. Then I found my way to some esoteric Freemasons in a couple of Fraternities who seemed unusually interested in what I felt and knew. But I did not understand. And it was scarey that there were Freemasons out there who appeared to know more about me than I knew about myself. But my internal work continued, doors opened, and then I hit another hurdle, one of belief. And then there was one of ethics and responsibility. Now that I have reached a level where I can believe with comfort, which has been partially due to efforts by yourself (I wonder if you realise how much you have actuallyhelped me)and others, including Ruff (and perhaps especially those Freemasons who have given me a hard time), I am able to take my next step forward and use my knowledge for the benefit of everyone and everything on this planet. Just knowing where to start, but at least I now know where to look.
Staffs sorry for the digression, but in a funny sort of way it is actually relevant to your question (levels of initiation).
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staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Jan 24, 2005 18:49:34 GMT
Stewart,no its not
Th equestion was how did the third degree originate and when. not stewarts esoteric journey.
How off topic you would never get away with it elsewhere.So slapped wrists to you stewart and whistler.
Ruff is let off cos he is finding his way around on his return and he made me laugh.
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Post by Seeker on Jan 24, 2005 19:04:53 GMT
Stewart,no its not Th equestion was how did the third degree originate and when. not stewarts esoteric journey. How off topic you would never get away with it elsewhere.So slapped wrists to you stewart and whistler. Ruff is let off cos he is finding his way around on his return and he made me laugh. Hey Staffs Stewart thinks the 3rd Degree started in Sirus Whistler thinks it is somewhere through the Orion Gateway Ruff thinks is mmm...... somewhere in big words... How about you are you sitting on the fence
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Jan 24, 2005 19:34:07 GMT
Yes maybe and ive got a splinter up my arse in doing so
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bod
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UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
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Post by bod on Jan 25, 2005 8:06:00 GMT
Found this info:
Craft Freemasonry was limited to two degrees before Shaw reorganisation. He introduced a third level of speculative Freemasonry between Entered Apprentice and Master Mason (known initially as the Master's Part). This Fellow Craft degree shows that these masons were not workers of the stone, but workers in "the Fellow Craft" of speculative Freemasonry. It is also a development of the Mark Mason degree.
The Second, or "fellowcraft" degree, does not give much new knowledge to the candidate, but it introduces the idea of "hidden mysteries of nature and sciences" and the notion of "Galilean Heresy". The content of this degree is as old as anything else in Freemasonry, but it was put together recently largely by Francis Bacon. At that time, the Catholic Church saw some danger in those who investigated science and started to persecute them. The Inquisition in Rome tried Galileo, who used new techniques in 1610 to confirm that the sun, and not the earth, was the centre of the universe. He was forced to recant in 1616 although Eratosthenes first discovered the concept in the third century BC and by Nicholaus Copernicus (1473-1543). References to this discovery are part of the tests to reach the second degree of Freemasonry. (from http://www.nullens.org) - not a masonic link, BTW
This suggests that the 1st & 3rd degree's were in existence when the 2nd was created. I have read something similar to this elsewhere - but can't remember where, it might have been 'Invisible College' or something similar. There was the suggestion that the second was developed by taking some of the third and mixing in a few other bits to create the second.
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