Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 9, 2007 3:22:29 GMT
Btw, that photo was taken long before I was born. For a more contemporary example, consider the response to Hurricane Katrina. However, we may want to return to the topic of this thread.
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Post by tws on Sept 9, 2007 3:24:09 GMT
Depends on what country you are talking about. I don't see it here, and I live in the Southern U.S., where you think we ride around wearing sheets and lynching people.
I see those who, through thier own effort, make some positive contribution to society, and those who choose not to do so. The opportunity exists equally for both outcomes, the choice is up to the individual.
"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
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Post by wayseer on Sept 9, 2007 3:25:20 GMT
On the premise that I may sound political I draw the Brethren's attention what has happen in Australia over the last few days concerning APEC.
You might recall that this time last year the Australian Prime Minister was pooing the very idea of climate change. Now he has gained an 'aspirational goal' for APEC with respect to climate change. What changed the PM?
It was economics - or more directly, the concerns that big business had with the looming issue. Big corporations such as Wespac and BHP have made the issue high priority. They are in the business of making profits but where will the end product be sold if half the world is underwater or in drought? Clearly they have an invested financial interest in controlling climate and world leaders are dragging their feet which threatens these big corporations.
Might I suggest something similar is happening to FM. When women are admitted it will be because some skeptical GM 'suddenly' sees the light realising that Lodge fees will have to double at least to make up for the loss in revenue - and if that happens there goes another 1000 odd members. Ethics will not come into the equation as it does not come into the equation with respect to climate change.
For GMs there is the sound of distant drums on the horizon even now. Brethren are already voting with their feet. At some point a critical mass will develop which can no longer be ignored - the elephant in the room syndrome.
While I admire Bro Philip's zeal I think it remains that 'forcing' the issue may be counter productive. Challenging the matter in Court may at best be an each way bet and create a lot of flak. I'm all for bush fires but I also accept that at some point someone has to put them out.
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Post by tws on Sept 9, 2007 3:29:51 GMT
Btw, that photo was taken long before I was born. For a more contemporary example, consider the response to Hurricane Katrina. However, we may want to return to the topic of this thread. Its all related. The damage to the coast caused by Katrina is larger than a lot of countries. People don't seem to have a clear concept of how large this country is. Out West, you can drive for hundreds of miles and never see a single human being, much less a structure of any sort. We've spents billions on the reconstruction of the gulf coast. Much of it was totally destroyed, like a nuke was dropped, razed to the ground. A lot of people moved inland, and will never return. I'm off to bed, it's 10:30 here, and i've been up since 05:30. We''l joust again soon. Phillip, you are a tenacious opponent.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 9, 2007 5:04:32 GMT
People don't seem to have a clear concept of how large this country is. Out West, you can drive for hundreds of miles and never see a single human being, much less a structure of any sort. Tell me about it (we have a population of about 21 million, compared with yours' of about 302 million). Sadly, our track record on race is no better than yours and, in terms of indigenous issues, I would say much worse. Good night (just after 3pm Sunday here).
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 9, 2007 8:40:29 GMT
Challenging the matter in Court may at best be an each way bet and create a lot of flak. Well said Bro. Wayseer,Even so, patiently waiting for Grand Lodges to do the right thing, simply because it is right (even after providing ample supporting evidence), has not worked and change is way, way overdue. Something has to budge. It is the motionless and stationary that most frets and impedes the current of progress; the solid rock or stupid dead tree, rested firmly on the bottom, and around which the river whirls and eddies...
- Pike
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 9, 2007 9:18:14 GMT
Isn't there an imminent General Election in Australia? I think this will have had an effect on Aussie PM Howard. (BTW I am NOT a supporter of "Global Warming Theory" myself and would have more respect for Howard if he held his ground on this matter).
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 9, 2007 9:45:15 GMT
Isn't there an imminent General Election in Australia? Yes, as stated in my Reply #2.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 9, 2007 9:56:09 GMT
I think, Bro lauderdale, that your comment about not being a supporter of the 'global warming theory' has precise analogues with this very thread: one can look at the evidence and reach a conclusion derived from the evidence; or one can either pretend the evidence is not sufficient, or deny the conclusion because (as in all inductive reasoning) it is possible (even if implausible) that the conclusion follows not from the evidence presented.
What PM J. Howard is finally doing is facing a conclusion that his own scientific advisors have been telling him for ages... though waiting until problems have become so manifest that most of Australia faces water problems (with many places in crisis) - a situation that if earlier recognised would not have brought rain, but have established infrastructures to meet the current needs, instead of the current situation.
With Freemasonry and the recognition of women and indeed their non-exclusion (a little different to forced inclusion - I'll perhaps get back to that another time), now is the time to act pro-actively. If one waits for the climate to do its damage, without having in place appropriate infrastructures, equivalent problems will also manifest as external forces have their inevitable impact.
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Post by wayseer on Sept 9, 2007 10:47:10 GMT
Bro JMD - I rarely disagree with you but I do here. The scientific evidence was overwhelmingly informing all that something was serious different with world climate. That advice was ignored by the PM until big business bought it rather forcibly to his attention - they were not concerned with the nicities of the situation or social ethics - just with profits and the PM stance threatened that objective.
What I'm suggesting is that we can jump up and down about the rights of women and 'fairness' but it will be the force of the economic argument that will initiate the change desperately needed.
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Post by penfold on Sept 10, 2007 10:43:53 GMT
For a different viewpoint on climate change take look at this article. I'm not coming down on either side of the argument, but simply offering an alternative view: www.theregister.co.uk/2007/08/14/freeman_dyson_climate_heresies/quote: "I have studied the climate models and I know what they can do. The models solve the equations of fluid dynamics, and they do a very good job of describing the fluid motions of the atmosphere and the oceans. They do a very poor job of describing the clouds, the dust, the chemistry, and the biology of fields and farms and forests," writes Dyson. Biomass holds the key to carbon, he writes - leaving us to infer that he thinks the human contribution is negligible. Overall, Dyson issues a plea for more scientific research into the behaviour of the planet's biomass.
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Post by corab on Sept 10, 2007 11:28:24 GMT
Bro:. Phil,
You couldn't have named this thread more aptly.
Brace yourself, for I am going to be brutally honest. As far as I'm concerned, the only one here forcing an issue is you. Who appointed you champion of this cause, and who decided it was a cause to start with?
I am a woman and I'm a freemason, and it annoys the living daylights out of me that you, a man, seek to champion a kind of misplaced female emancipation I couldn't for the life of me support.
There *is* no cause. It is a *non*-issue. There is no such thing as gender discrimination in freemasonry -- there is choice for all. If a woman wants to work together with men, then she should join a co-masonic lodge; likewise so for a man who wishes to work with women.
Here's a buzz-word for you: pro-choice. Let each of us make his or her own choice.
With h.g.w.,
Cora
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 10, 2007 11:46:49 GMT
Who appointed you champion of this cause, and who decided it was a cause to start with?
I am a woman and I'm a freemason, and it annoys the living daylights out of me that you, a man, seek to champion a kind of misplaced female emancipation I couldn't for the life of me support. Bro. Cora,You may speak for yourself but not for all women. You have seen the petition I put out in 1991 and many women told me they supported it. In lodging a grievance with the Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunities Commission, at a single meeting I quickly had seven women sign on as aggrieved persons and was asked to represent them (there would have been more but I had only made provision for seven signatories). If there had been only one, I would have still supported her. [edit] Indeed, On a related topic I recall you had contacted me saying, "Could do with your help here". [/edit] Personally, I believe most men in mainstream Freemasons will benefit from having the excrescence of discrimination removed from the institution (and the exclusion of women is, by definition, discriminatory). As for your 'choice,' it is not so convenient in much of Australia and I also refer you to my Reply #28. BTW, my Human Rights advocacy is broader than the issue of women and Freemasonry, it's just that it is my focus on this forum. I am by profession a Disability Employment Advocate and I have an interest in Aboriginal rights, working closely with an Indigenous Employment Advocate (I suspect some single issue advocates can be somewhat patronising—I like to think I generally support the disadvantaged, who ever they are—and sometimes it's me!). I find that standing-up for the rights of others gives me more confidence when asserting my own rights and positions (although that seems to be pushing a few buttons here of late, from some unexpected quarters). In the meantime, I intend to be " ...steadfast in the pursuit of truth, neither bending beneath the frowns of adversity nor yielding to the seductions of prosperity."
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 10, 2007 11:57:23 GMT
Bro. Cora, the United Grand Lodge of Victoria wasn't taken to court some ten years ago on the grounds of gender discrimination by women on grounds you profess. The issue is far more complex than a call to 'pro-choice' when in most (at least local) situations there is no real choice.
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Post by wayseer on Sept 10, 2007 12:34:09 GMT
There is no such thing as gender discrimination in freemasonry -- there is choice for all.
I cannot visit or join a co-masonic Lodge - thems the rules in my neck of the woods. Should I do so I open myself to be dismissed - that's discrimination - for whatever reason.
Further, the nearest Co-Masonic Lodge is three and half hours drive - one way. That is hardly an viable option.
There is a cause Cora - and I agree with you, it's not up to men to champion the cause of women. But, as a women, that cause is one of which you may not be fully aware. The cause is that some men find it obnoxious that they are held prisoner by other men and their sexist agenda who will resort to rather unsavoury tactics to hold onto their precious sacred cows and egos. Its more about men change men. And, Yes, we can do with some help in that cause - from women.
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Post by leonardo on Sept 10, 2007 13:07:52 GMT
BTW I DID vote with my feet, left Malecraft (UGLE) and became a Co-Mason . Any regrets, Steve?
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 10, 2007 14:41:30 GMT
None.
All I would say is that I do miss a couple of the Orders which are not worked by LDH namely Royal and Select Masters (Cryptic) and Red Cross of Constantine, especially the Appendent Degrees of Knights of the Holy Sepulchre and Knights of St John the Evangelist. Still nothing that is worthwhile comes without some sacrifice.
That apart I am very happy and content in the choice I made.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 10, 2007 15:46:51 GMT
There is, indeed, I think, a "cause" here. It is not, however, gender based. I believe the gender issue is but a symptom of what really ails us. It is that cause, I think, that should hold our attention.
I believe the true cause to be lodge autonomy. This appears to be an issue in *all* jurisdictions.
I'm of the opinion (and I hear the yawning out there. I know, I've stated this before. However, it seems to bear repeating) that each lodge *is* free to choose for itself who it will, and will not, accept as members. However, there are those who usurp this freedom. And there are lodges that allow it to be usurped. The freedom remains, it's just incredibly difficult to exercise.
So, *I* don't think forcing lodges to integrate/segregate will assist in this cause. Indeed, this element of force, among brothers, I believe, is evil. Instead, I advocate a recognition of the freedom that already exists; that those who usurp this freedom stop doing so; and that those who allow their freedoms to be usurped stop doing so.
I know that's not easy. But it's not our's, always, to do what is easy. It is our's to do what is right, even when it is easier to do wrong.
And that's all.
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Post by leonardo on Sept 10, 2007 17:18:00 GMT
None. All I would say is that I do miss a couple of the Orders which are not worked by LDH namely Royal and Select Masters (Cryptic) and Red Cross of Constantine, especially the Appendent Degrees of Knights of the Holy Sepulchre and Knights of St John the Evangelist. Still nothing that is worthwhile comes without some sacrifice. That apart I am very happy and content in the choice I made. Thanks Steve for replying so honestly to my question. I only asked because your situation is unusual, at least in my limited understanding, in the sense you felt drawn to CFM and LDH in particular away from UGLE and therefor your perspective and experience is unique.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 10, 2007 20:35:12 GMT
Indeed, this element of force, among brothers, I believe, is evil. How so? What do you mean by 'force?' What do you mean by 'evil?' How would you pursue your cause of 'lodge autonomy,' if not by some sort of 'force.' Might you accept others' characterization of your position as being 'evil?' What room does this leave them for discussion of your cause? Might you consider their characterization reflects upon your reputation? Would you have a right to be offended? Would you perceive their characterization as standing between them and yourself? Would their denial of your perception change it?
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