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Post by corab on Sept 12, 2007 14:14:17 GMT
Right glad I am to find your lecturer was only joking (I guess you had to be there). Well, that was his excuse, blatantly belied by his obvious dis-ease at being so challenged. I didn't buy it. Nor did anyone else, for that matter. I guess it wasn't the wisest of things to say in front of such a mixed audience, with so many representatives from the various feminine and co-masonic bodies present. But may I just re-focus your attention to the remainder of my comments? I am very interested in your thoughts on them. Why so? Surely if our work is founded in morality, in ma'at, then we should rise above these base instincts? It may be a personal thing, but I consider myself subject to higher demands in that respect. I feel that as mason I am morally obliged to rise above these things that hamper social and spiritual evolution in the wider community. I don't always succeed at that -- I am human first, then mason -- but I do give it my very best effort. Should we not be able to take that as a given from our Brn:.? But what is there to 'normalise'? There are bodies that admit men and women on equal footing -- why should any woman, safe for the sake of prevailing over the male of the species, wish to render a male lodge co-masonic when the option is already available to her? I consider respect to be a major part of freemasonry. I respect my male Brn:.'s desire to experience their freemasonry in their preferred environment -- likewise so for my female Brn:. The thought of entering any Temple without express permission is abhorrent to me, and for all the curiosity that I feel about experiencing how my local UGLE lodge work their ceremonies, I wouldn't impose myself like that. However much it makes my blood boil when a Bro:. tells me with total conviction that I cannot be a mason because I'm a woman, it is one of my most deeply held beliefs that every single one of us has the inalienable right to experience his or her freemasonry in his or her chosen environment, and that is a right I am prepared to defend with everything I have. So I guess we're rather on opposite ends in that respect!
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Post by brandt on Sept 12, 2007 14:14:44 GMT
The idea of true freedom is too terrifying for many to wrap their brains around.
Brandt
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Post by tws on Sept 12, 2007 15:43:28 GMT
The idea of true freedom is too terrifying for many to wrap their brains around. Brandt This is true. We have already established, many times, that there is Masonry to fit all needs. I can see no reason to "force" others into a mold not of thier choosing, other than a sense that the "forcer" believes they know better what is for thier own good than the "forcee." Take this into concideration: there are different energies present in each different type of Masonry. Not all individuals can work harmoniously in an environment in which they do not resonate. Much like there are monestaries, convents, and mixed congregations. Not everyone is suited by thier inborn nature to forced into a pattern that is not harmonious with that nature. By trying to do this, you are creating a disharmonious element into the matrix, which de-focuses the output of good-will of the group. Think of it like this: All over the world, Masons in thier various lodges, at any given time, are calling down the blessings of the GAOTU into this plane of existance. this blessing creates a harmony of goodwill which radiates outward, joining with the outpouring of goodwill of others of similar intent, such as monks, nuns (of all religious persuasions), and individuals engaged in prayer and other operations. This radiated goodwill joins together to form an overarching "umbrella" of vibration, helping to sustain harmony in the material plane with that of the spiritual. This helps also to hold those energies that are hostile and/or harmful in abeyance. Introducing a disharmonious element into the group egregore will cause the disruption, and disintegration of the integrity of that groups spiritual field, leading to its ultimite demise. Tell me, Phillip and others who support his viewpoint on this, do you truely want to be a party to something that will result in the spiritual death of an honorable institution? Think about it...
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 12, 2007 18:38:06 GMT
Bro. Cora,However much it makes my blood boil when a Bro:. tells me with total conviction that I cannot be a mason because I'm a woman Bravo! One of the things I am trying to address is the denial of that reality for some and of that possibility for others. Why so? Surely if our work is founded in morality, in ma'at, then we should rise above these base instincts? It may be a personal thing, but I consider myself subject to higher demands in that respect. I feel that as mason I am morally obliged to rise above these things that hamper social and spiritual evolution in the wider community. I don't always succeed at that -- I am human first, then mason -- but I do give it my very best effort.
Should we not be able to take that as a given from our Brn:.? I thought that was what I was saying. Bro. twsTellll me, Philip and others who support his viewpoint on this, do you truely want to be a party to something that will result in the spiritual death of an honorable institution? I see it as part of a spiritual revival of an increasingly moribund institution. I respect the use of the ballot to preserve harmony with respect to individuals, not groups based on race, gender, etc. If such groups are not "compatible" with a particular egregore then we should address that unmasonic problem rather than pander to it, especially as it feeds into the wider collective consciousness.
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Post by corab on Sept 12, 2007 22:39:10 GMT
Bro. Cora,However much it makes my blood boil when a Bro:. tells me with total conviction that I cannot be a mason because I'm a woman Bravo! One of the things I am trying to address is the denial of that reality for some and of that possibility for others. I understand that, but you're not going to do that with selectively quoting, and thus mis-representing, my statements. I said:-
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 12, 2007 23:09:30 GMT
Even if that choice, involves discrimination on the basis of race or gender rather than on individual merits and compatibility? If so, that is where we differ.
BTW, I had only intended to applaud your spirit: I hadn't intended to comment further on the point you raised, as it had already been exhaustively addressed.
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Post by maat on Sept 12, 2007 23:47:27 GMT
Think of it like this: All over the world, Masons in thier various lodges, at any given time, are calling down the blessings of the GAOTU into this plane of existance. this blessing creates a harmony of goodwill which radiates outward, joining with the outpouring of goodwill of others of similar intent, such as monks, nuns (of all religious persuasions), and individuals engaged in prayer and other operations. This radiated goodwill joins together to form an overarching "umbrella" of vibration, helping to sustain harmony in the material plane with that of the spiritual. This helps also to hold those energies that are hostile and/or harmful in abeyance. I loved this, tws. Thank you. I am wondering if I am clever enough to paint that thoughtform... my brain is doing somersaults trying to capture the essence of all that it encompasses and translating it into form. Maat For disruptive organisations I could use the old 'hole in the bucket' image... hmnnn...
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Post by Ziggy on Sept 13, 2007 0:49:35 GMT
Just reading through this post, I had to stop and laughs.
I'm not really worried about us over here in the states. I'm sure there's some People who think they can force mainstream masonry, into pochulie huffer ideology. I don't know about the rest the world, but here in the states our rights are secure, upheld by US code 502, and several Supreme Court decisions that allow us to exclude women, atheists, agnostics, and even if we had a rule that excluded pink purple polkadotted people, our institution is still protected. Our freedom of association, and our liberty, as well as exclusion, and expulsion of those who violate and break their oaths, is guaranteed.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 13, 2007 1:41:10 GMT
Greetings averroes and welcome to Masonic Forum of Light For the sake of openness, I am a female US Freemason. "our institution" includes me. I am no more interested in forcing US Malecraft Masonry to accept women than I would be in any force used to segregate my own jurisdiction. That said . . . You mentioned "our institution is still protected" by the above mentioned laws and such. I'm curious - truly, I am and that's all. Does Malecraft Masonry in the US really feel it requires protection from women, atheists and agnostics? If so, what, exactly is the threat?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 13, 2007 1:51:56 GMT
I don't know about the rest the world, but here in the states our rights are secure, upheld by US code 502, and several Supreme Court decisions that allow us to exclude women, atheists, agnostics, and even if we had a rule that excluded pink purple polkadotted people, our institution is still protected. But is such discrimination Masonic? Welcome. P.S., Re '"Freedom" of Association,' (esp. in the U.S.A.) I suggest you read my reply #6.
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Post by maat on Sept 13, 2007 2:26:37 GMT
Our freedom of association, and our liberty, as well as exclusion, and expulsion of those who violate and break their oaths, is guaranteed. Just curious, but whom are you free to associate with? Maat
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Post by Ziggy on Sept 13, 2007 2:32:27 GMT
I don't know about the rest the world, but here in the states our rights are secure, upheld by US code 502, and several Supreme Court decisions that allow us to exclude women, atheists, agnostics, and even if we had a rule that excluded pink purple polkadotted people, our institution is still protected. But is such discrimination Masonic? Welcome. P.S., Re '"Freedom" of Association,' (esp. in the U.S.A.) I suggest you read my reply #6. I'm sorry? But we have not made nor pressed no laws, to keep co-masons, and womens only Masons from setting up Lodges, within the US or its territories. As long as they stay within the federal law, state, and local laws and codes, they should have no fear, for many of the mainstream. As for discrimination, it is Unmasonic to tread upon our liberty, and try to use petty threats to force us to conform to your ideology. As for our standards, there called Norms, and Mores, and in the world of Sociology, and they maintain and regulate social order within the organization. There is also the issue of gender identity, which goes far beyond a social construct, why should we have to accept women, where a faternity a paternal organization, which means men only. And what goes on between us in our lodges is a very private matter, and is a secret between men, as for all the secrets are not within the degrees. But sometimes, We are our the keeper of our brothers secret's, his wants, desires, dreams, and fears, that side of the persona that a man does not always want others to see. Furthermore, we should feel no shame in being a male only organization, that only admits men. People are free to join whatever they really want to, whether it be mainstream, co, or womens only masons. Just like they're fully free to break their obligations, and suffer the consequences for breaking their obligation. Such is the way of the world. Paradise is not a place, nor is hell, but rather a state of mind. You can choose, where you you want to be.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 13, 2007 3:10:14 GMT
Just curious, but whom are you free to associate with? Bro. Maat,I feel your question is also the most appropriate response to averroes' last post. I have nothing more to add.
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Post by Ziggy on Sept 13, 2007 3:23:46 GMT
Just curious, but whom are you free to associate with? Bro. Maat,I feel your question is also the most appropriate response to averroes' last post. I have nothing more to add. So in other words you have to have someone else fight your battles, and make your arguments for you.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 13, 2007 3:46:55 GMT
So in other words you have to have someone else fight your battles, and make your arguments for you. Those acquainted with my posts may find this laughable
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Post by Ziggy on Sept 13, 2007 4:37:03 GMT
So in other words you have to have someone else fight your battles, and make your arguments for you. Those acquainted with my posts may find this laughable Other Posts are just that, other posts. Though it is interesting, how you try to intellectualize your way out of addressing the issue. However, I Realize not everyone is strong enough to back up their arguments with sound and solid arguments. There are many people that can make idle threats, to make up for their weak ego, but not follow through. You're more than welcome contact the ACLU, they'll just tell you what I just stated Earlyer, in previous posts. Like old saying go here State side "Talks cheap" "Actions speak louder than words" "Put up or shut up" and "Wish with one hand, and (Well, I don't need to state that. I'll let your imagination do the work for me.)" I'm waiting, I got the ACLU website bookmarked.
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Post by maat on Sept 13, 2007 4:59:39 GMT
it is interesting, how you try to intellectualize your way out of addressing the issue. However, I Realize not everyone is strong enough to back up their arguments with sound and solid arguments. Interesting point of difference in our respective Masonry, Averroes. In Co-Masonry we are directed to listen to our intuition, that still small voice within us all. It is said to be a point from which we cannot err. Those that follow its guidance find the results are always positive, even though our intellectual/reasoning side might not have figured out why. A great many famous inventions and discoveries were made this way. In some cases the answer was given and known and then the scientist had to work backwards. So if we are weak in muscle or mind we can really depend on you to come to our aid? And you will not admonish us for our perceived inferiority? Rather you will support and encourage us, give us your shoulder to lean on? Just between you 'n me, I think a strong heart beats a strong mind any day. Maat
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Post by wayseer on Sept 13, 2007 6:03:37 GMT
There are many people that can make idle threats, to make up for their weak ego, but not follow through.
Yes - you demonstrate a valid point - but I don't think it is the point you intended to make.
Paradise is not a place, nor is hell, but rather a state of mind. You can choose, where you you want to be.
So, if you can choose - what's the beef?
... We are our the keeper of our brothers secret's ... that side of the persona that a man does not always want others to see.
I wonder if you can see the obvious contradiction contained in this statement?
As for our standards, there called Norms, and Mores, and in the world of Sociology, and they maintain and regulate social order within the organization.
Quite so. Unfortunately many of these so-called 'norms' and 'mores' discriminate in ways that most people don't necessarily recognise - that's why we have laws - not all social conventions act in the best interest of society.
There is also the issue of gender identity, which goes far beyond a social construct ...
But that is exactly what 'gender' is - a social construct.
Rather than laughing at the posts hereon it might be better to do some thinking before wading in with your ego flapping. You may not agree with the views expressed hereon - but that's 'freedom' for you - you don't always get what you want. So, while you're busy shouting 'freedom' you also denying others their right to express their desires in their own way.
Are you a troll?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 13, 2007 6:28:48 GMT
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Post by wayseer on Sept 13, 2007 6:33:01 GMT
Gee - I bet that just terrifies our new member in the US.
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