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Post by offramp on Nov 6, 2004 8:21:33 GMT
Is there a specific reason why Lodge Officers always have to leave by the right and enter by the left of their podiums?
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Nov 6, 2004 8:41:28 GMT
What a good question although i presume you are looking at the peds from how he stands in them ??
Is it to do with clockwise rotation which is the direction the earth orbits the sun.
The earth constantly revolving ...........
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Post by taylorsman on Nov 6, 2004 9:50:22 GMT
In many Traditional Craft Lodges the correct movement is Clockwise. The Deacons will move Clockwise etc. Also note that during the Installation when the Officer is taken to the WM's Pedestal to be Invested he will be talen to the WM's Right if he has not been through the Chair but to the Left if he is a Worshipful Brother.
The Movement Clockwise is taken as the norm in many organisations, indeed to move Counterclockwise or Widdershins is considered to be "wrong".
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Post by Doric on Nov 6, 2004 10:35:33 GMT
It is also said that movement to the left (or sinister, in Latin) is the Devil's direction
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Post by Stash on Nov 6, 2004 11:14:00 GMT
I really wouldn't attribute any worth to THAT though
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Post by Doric on Nov 6, 2004 12:30:23 GMT
Depends on where you heard it, I suppose. I once heard a PGM express a desire not to enter the Festive Board anti-clock - "The Devil's work lies that way!"
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Post by taylorsman on Nov 6, 2004 12:41:51 GMT
Stash, I would myself tend to heed these old folk wisdoms, they are common to so many cultures and organisations etc down through the ages. I still know people who will not stir their coffee or tea counterclockwise nor move that way if they can avoid it, so I feel that this has been embedded in Masonic Practice from such customs and practices.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Nov 6, 2004 12:52:56 GMT
The apparent motion of the Sun is of course only clockwise in the northern hemisphere... and is also the reason why clocks also tend to be designed to also show a clockwise motion (unless you buy a specifically anti-clockwise Australian clock )
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Post by taylorsman on Nov 6, 2004 13:22:00 GMT
Bro JMD , one has to bear in mind that the prevailing and dominant Cuture in the World is European and North American (which of course came from Europe) and this drives the outlook and ethos. When the Southern Hemisphere was colonised the European Nations brought their culture with them , thus the apparently ridiculous situation of celebrating Xmas in the High Summer in the likes of SA, OZ or NZ but singing about "In the Deep Midwinter" or "See amid the Winter Snow" and images of Santa Claus on a sleigh in the snow, or Easter which is in the Southern Autumn having redolences of "Spring" , "Bunnies" etc and other Northern Iconography.
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Post by offramp on Nov 6, 2004 22:07:38 GMT
Thank you all for your interesting responses. My own first thought was that the movement of the - say - JW into his seat, and his subsequent movement out of it made a right-angle. But that would also be the case if he entered and lest the other way 'round! So clockwise must be the answer. In which case the only time the Wardens move diseal is to address the Candidates!
By the way I made the subject of this topic deliberately vague so that other similar questions might be asked in it.
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Nov 7, 2004 12:20:52 GMT
saw yesterday at a fb the WM enter the FB anti clock but it would have been awkward and differentthe other way. And i had always wondered why at installations some were invested the other side Thanks for that
We light aour candles in a clockwise direction around the peds and round the elodge.
It is a ritual in itself and takes a lot of practice at LOI
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Post by offramp on Nov 7, 2004 13:01:33 GMT
If one of the officers is not present at an Installation the DC says, "Is it your pleasure to invest him at a future date?"
But what happens - and it must have happened at some time - if the Master Elect himself cannot make the Installation Meeting?
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 7, 2004 15:47:16 GMT
If one of the officers is not present at an Installation the DC says, "Is it your pleasure to invest him at a future date?" But what happens - and it must have happened at some time - if the Master Elect himself cannot make the Installation Meeting? Offramp, if the Wm elect cannot make it due to illness or more pressing emergencies, the installation ceremony is done at the next regular meeting as long as it is within five weeks of the date of the installation meeting, if not then the lodge must call an emergency meeting,within 5 weeks, if The WM elect is still incapacitated at this meeting then The incumbent WM stays until the next regular election meeting (in other words he does another year). If the Master elect dies between election and installation, the Secretary of the lodge must send notice of and if possible in the summons that there will be a new election and installation of the new WM elect on the same day. Would be a bit of a bugger going all the way through the offices and then dropping dead wouldn't it! And funny enough I have just had to continue as WM in one of my Mark Lodges because the WM elect telephoned me the Night before the installation and told me he wasn't going to go on after all. I won't repeat what I thought!
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Post by taylorsman on Nov 7, 2004 16:32:47 GMT
Following on from that question, here is one for you B of C experts.
One of the Officers, let's say the JD, is absent at the Installation, the question is put as above to the new WM who agrees to Invest him at a later Meeting, another Member fills the Office.
Next Meeting the JD is absent again, and at the next and the next. Comes the following Meeting, the next Installation in that Lodge as a year has elapsed. The JD turns up and fills that Office. Now as it's the Installation the outgoing WM will soon ask all the Officers of his year to line up in the North then thank them for their assistance and support. As interim Wardens and IG have been appointed and all Offices are now vacant I would assume that the JD in question would NOT be Invested by the outgoing WM as he would only be in that Office and wear the Collar and Jewel for a few minutes? To my mind he should simply fill the Office in the Opening then if not being Invested in an Office by the new WM simply sit down in the Lodge.
Now what do you think folks? Is there any point in going through the rigmarole of Investing him at the start of the Meeting for only a few minutes?
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Nov 7, 2004 16:35:44 GMT
I bet the PGM or his assistant would be well p........d off itf the master elect or reigning master could not make it.
That would really be a black mark against any future honours.
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 7, 2004 16:37:44 GMT
None whatsoever, and unless the brother had very good reasons for not turning up during his year in office, I would hope the new Master would have enough sense to keep him on hold either by reappointing him to the same office or making him stand aside altogether.
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Post by Doric on Nov 7, 2004 19:37:38 GMT
Following on from that question, here is one for you B of C experts. One of the Officers, let's say the JD, is absent at the Installation, the question is put as above to the new WM who agrees to Invest him at a later Meeting, another Member fills the Office. Next Meeting the JD is absent again, and at the next and the next. Comes the following Meeting, the next Installation in that Lodge as a year has elapsed. The JD turns up and fills that Office. Now as it's the Installation the outgoing WM will soon ask all the Officers of his year to line up in the North then thank them for their assistance and support. As interim Wardens and IG have been appointed and all Offices are now vacant I would assume that the JD in question would NOT be Invested by the outgoing WM as he would only be in that Office and wear the Collar and Jewel for a few minutes? To my mind he should simply fill the Office in the Opening then if not being Invested in an Office by the new WM simply sit down in the Lodge. Now what do you think folks? Is there any point in going through the rigmarole of Investing him at the start of the Meeting for only a few minutes? First thing, as the missing Officer has been appointed, he has an undoubted right to be Invested, even if it's only for a few minutes. Secondly, there is never a moment in the English Constitution when Offices are vacant - the Office holder remains so until his successor is appointed. If the Office Holder is below the rank of an IM, then his role is temporarily filled by a PM while the Board of IM's is closed. For convenience, the PM will remain in situ until the successor is appointed.
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 7, 2004 21:28:08 GMT
So, in a board of Installed Masters there is no need for either deacons, so surely those two offices have indeed been left vacant? And will not be filled again until the appointment and investiture of officers.
A minor point, fpor technically I agree with you Doric but it is the case with the deacons if they are not installed masters they must leave thier post for the inner workings.
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Post by taylorsman on Nov 7, 2004 22:48:33 GMT
True Middlepillar, not only that but in most Lodges at an Installation the Deacons are redundant after the Opening and the Line up in the North as the DC, ADC or a PM will attend to the Tracing Boards as the Lodge is Opened and Closed in the Second and Third until new Deacons are Invested. They will then come into play to collect Alms then to deal with the TB and extinguishing the candles at the Closing and to lead the Procession out of the Lodge.
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Post by Doric on Nov 8, 2004 0:24:58 GMT
The fact that there is no part for an Officer to play does not mean that he is redundant. There are several occasions when an Officer has nothing to do - for example, the Almoner has no part to play in any ceremony. It doesn't mean he's no use!
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