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Post by mrmason on Jan 17, 2005 6:57:09 GMT
Last week I sat officially for the first time as PG Steward in our PG Lodge. I have to say it was a very warming an welcoming feeling, with many older brethren encouraging me to remain in PGL and go through the offices. So only about another 15-20 years to reach the PGSW's chair. Unless of course I wish to put my name in the hat for the PGM's job. I also sat officially for the first time as PG President of Stewards in our PG Chapter on Thursday past. Again it is a very welcoming body. A bit more relaxed than the PGL however, but no less important.
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staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Jan 17, 2005 7:01:27 GMT
Bob,put your name in the hat and go for the top job !!
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Post by mrmason on Jan 17, 2005 7:09:04 GMT
Lee, Funnily enough I was thinking along them lines in about 5 years time, but with working shifts it's not so easy. I could do the same with the PG Chapter which is not so demanding. Each of the top jobs are held for 5 years so who knows.
Who am I kidding ;D
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 17, 2005 7:57:43 GMT
Congrats!
Now it is marvellous that in Scotland you CAN put your hat in the ring for PGM and it is not like down here where the Chain Gang "emerge" out of the Magic Circle with no input from Ordinary Members, he is Appointed not Elected!
So if you feel you could do it, go for it and Good Luck!
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Post by mrmason on Jan 17, 2005 12:57:06 GMT
Thanks Steve, It is something which I may consider in the future, however shifts are not the best for carrying out the role. The trouble in Scotland is that once through the chairs of the craft, arch and kt you are eligable for those provincial/district offices. The problem arises because all these bodies want you as an attending member and there just isn't enough time in the week for it all. For that reason I had to give up office in District Priory.
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Post by leonardo on Jan 17, 2005 13:00:38 GMT
Best of luck Bob. I'm sure you will make the right choice. Life is too short
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2005 10:51:37 GMT
So Steve, as you know I am fairly ambitious in my masonry and am certainly attracted by doing an active Metropolitan Steward or Prov G Steward role in due course. So how do I position myself for this? Do I approach the relevant visiting GO and say "please can you consider me". Also at higher levels if there were to be a job that a mason would really like to do in Met GL or Prov GL and that he believes he would do well, how does he go about getting it? ie based on ability and keeness not reward / charitable donations etc.
Kevin
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 21, 2005 11:49:57 GMT
As far as I know down here it's "The Magic Circle" which determines such matters as a man becoming a Provincial Grand Steward, (unlike in Scotland), so it would NEVER have been something that would have interested me. It is true that proficiency at Ritual plays a large part and this is noticed and noted by the Member of the Chain Gang and his Escort (or the VGO in London) at Installations, particularly as regards the Installing Master and the Master Elect , how the former Installs his Successor and the latter Invests his Officers. The DC will also be assessed on their performance and his own and that of the other Officers and his future Honours or Promotion, and whether Acting or Past will be affected thereby.
As you can imagine only the very best are usually chosen as Provincial Grand Stewards and apart from the "Tests of Merit" as above there is a bit of "who you know" or more accurately "who knows you" and being seen to be seen at Provincial Functions etc so alas Sycophancy can play its part I'm sorry to say.
I don't know if being in other Orders and Degrees plays its part in such a selection, it might even be counterproductive as "they" may prefer a man who is seen to be dedicated to Craft and possibly Royal Arch and not heavily involved in the Higher Degrees.
Prov Grand Stewards often accompany the PGM, and other Chain Gang Members to Installations, Banner Dedications, Aniversary Celebrations and Consecration of new Lodges and are the PGMs Escort at Provincial Grand Lodge Annual Meetings where they usually carry white wands with a red tip. If a Provincial Grand Steward visits a Lodge on his own it is customary to place him in the North East on the WM's Right with any Grand Officers. Most Provinces have a Grand Stewards Lodge which will often by invitation confer Degrees for other Lodges and at which Lectures, Papers etc are presented, they don't of course have their own Initiates, and all Members are Past Masters. Finally I understand that if a man has already been given any Provincial or Grand Honour he will not be made a Provincial Grand Steward but that could be hearsay. However being Appointed as a Prov Grand Steward is often considered to be the first step to eventual Grand Rank and possible Membership of the Chain Gang of that Province.
I hope this is of use to you in this matter.
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Post by mrmason on Jan 21, 2005 12:43:18 GMT
Just as a bit of insight. We are allowed 5 members of each lodge to hold office in Provincial. In my own lodge they include J and SD's and 3 PM's. That however does not stop any PM being a member of PGL, it just means that only 5 at any time can hold office. It costs £3.00 per year for membership to PGL or £30.00 for life membership. If you take office then it costs between £3.00 and £5.00 extra per year, depending on what office you are. These are known as Fees of Honour and there is no life membership for these as you only pay then if in office. Stewards are £3.00 per year where as the commissioned officers( PGM/DPGM/ASSISTPGM etc) are £5.00 per year. Each PGL officer must make 5 meetings per year of PGL to continue progressing through all the offices.
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Post by Trinityman on Jan 21, 2005 14:01:59 GMT
So Steve, as you know I am fairly ambitious in my masonry and am certainly attracted by doing an active Metropolitan Steward or Prov G Steward role in due course. So how do I position myself for this? Do I approach the relevant visiting GO and say "please can you consider me". Also at higher levels if there were to be a job that a mason would really like to do in Met GL or Prov GL and that he believes he would do well, how does he go about getting it? ie based on ability and keeness not reward / charitable donations etc. Kevin I can't speak for other provinces, but in Warwickshire active officers are encouraged to support the province in it's activities. This would certainly involve attendance at official provincial events as well as supporting struggling lodges, simply by attending when possible. This would be in addition to any active duties of the office. Many provinces such as Warks operate more like a business than a club, and just like a business one would wish to make sure that the 'boss' knows who you are and what you are capable of. PGMs will always try to put the best people in positions to assist him so don't hide your light under a bushel. However, remember that humility is a masonic virtue. I congratulate you in your interest in wishing to give back to freemasonry your time and effort. Some people scoff at the hard work done by provincial officers and we should be grateful that there are people like you who are prepared to stand up and be counted.
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 21, 2005 23:33:48 GMT
"...Many provinces such as Warks operate more like a business than a club, and just like a business one would wish to make sure that the 'boss' knows who you are and what you are capable of."
These words sadden but do NOT surprise me but I am pleased to say that this concept does not seem to have pervaded the Provinces and Lodges to which I belong. Most of my Masonic friends are in it, as I am myself, for the pleasure, enjoyment and above all RELAXATION that Freemasonry engenders and not for "pecking orders" etc, many of us get too much of that at work where some may indulge in toadying to the bosses to "be seen to be seen" in the hope of getting promotion, a pay rise or whatever.
To show that I am consistant, not only do I shun what to me are the irrelevant social junkets in Freemasonry such as Ladies Nights, Charity Festival Balls, PGM's Receptions etc, but also avoid like the plague similar functions at my work such as Xmas Dinner Dances, Summer Barbecues, etc as I wish to be judged on the quality of my work and abilities and not as a result of sycophancy. I act with courtesy and respect towards my fellow employees be they Bosses or Ordinary Workers such as myself and get the same in return but outside of working hours and off the premises I have no wish to be involved.
The day that Freemasonry becomes nothing more than a business and part of the leisure industry is the day I hang up my Apron! Thankfully my Visiting does NOT take me to the West Mindlands and I doubt it ever will!
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Post by Trinityman on Jan 22, 2005 2:04:03 GMT
These words sadden but do NOT surprise me but I am pleased to say that this concept does not seem to have pervaded the Provinces and Lodges to which I belong. I would prefer a professional, well managed and financially viable Province any day to the well meaning but inefficient amateur one. This is the same the world over - who would prefer the old-style poorly run expensive British theme-park to the spectacular Disneyword? The difference is management and professionalism. As are all my masonic friends and all right thinking freemasons. This has got nothing to do with running things properly and everything to do with a very few shallow-minded individuals who don't understand what freemasonry is all about. Please don't get the two mixed up. I agree, but again that is not what we are talking about here. That's very disappointing, and I hope you don't mean that as I am still hoping to entice you up for our 250th at the end of the year.
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 22, 2005 6:22:11 GMT
You have confirmed all that I feared, the cold deadly hand of the Accountant and MBA Man is even touching on The Craft. Taking what you have said into account and other factors I have heard about the "efficient" way things are run in some places, e.g. TELLING a Lodge who it can nominate for Honours etc, I will stick to the more amateur but more homely way that matters are run in the areas in which I am active and in the Higher Degrees which seem to tbe free of such attitudes.
So there is one Dining Fee you need never pay, I will continue to view that area from 35,000 feet out of an aircraft heading to Glasgow.
I can just envisage an advert in the Sits Vac of the Times or Telegraph in a few years time. "Wanted C.E.O (PGM) for Gentleman's Charitable and Social Organisation Area Branch . A flair for Fund Raising for large National Charities will be advantageous as will the ability to make after dinner speeches although training will be given to the successful applicant and an experienced support will be provided. Qualifications in Marketing, Accountancy or an MBA will be prefered as will experience in the Leisure Industry and a liking for the Theatrical and Dramatic as the Applicant if successful will be expected to partcipate in some activities of that nature. Compensation Package includes chauffeur driven transport to functions and free meals and drinks and a historic piece of costume jewelry to wear, but as not salaried may be more suitable for a man with an independent income or who already holds well remunerated executive appointments. Directly and only responsible to National Head Office in London you will be expected to ensure the implimentation of National Policy in your area"
Now is THAT would we want? Not for this Widow's Son. At least the Scots get to vote for their PGM etc and he knows that the power comes UP from the Private Lodges and not DOWN from him.
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Post by Trinityman on Jan 22, 2005 9:57:49 GMT
I don't want to flog a dead horse on this one . The many thousands of visitors to lodges across Warwickshire will attest to the warmth and friendliness of our welcome, and this is found nowhere more than in Trinity Lodge. The careful organisation and management of our province means that we are thriving and membership has been increasing in Warks in recent years. Incidentally, in Warks lodges put a PM up for honours in rotation, typically seven years after attaining the chair. Under the old rules everyone of these brethren got an honour, but as you know changes are afoot and now some of those PM will not get an honour. Province will make the decision based on an 'masonic CV' put together by the lodge with the assistance of the brother concerned. In this sense PMs will be chosen as there are now not enough honours to go around. 'Active' officers are chosen by province for the year, but that is quite normal. The difference here, as opposed to other provinces that you appear to have experience of, is that it is done by merit rather than just picking ones mates, or basing the selection of ADCs on who is prepared to drive the chain gang around the province. I'm sorry you are choosing not to experience Warwickshire freemasonry first hand yourself, like I say, disappointing, but I am confident I shall get you up to Trinity at some point soon so you can see for yourself ;D
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 22, 2005 10:57:31 GMT
Let's see, I have nothing to do on the "Thirty-First of February" most years, so I'll visit the West Midlands then.
Seriously, I have no problem with the Chain Gang chosing their Acting Officers, they have to work with them after all, and an Escort who can't do the job isn't going to be a lot of good at an Installation after all.
It is the allocation of the Past or Honorific awards that I strongly object to direction from above. Yes I accept that the system has changed and fewer honours are available, but to my mind it is for THE LODGE to recommend any suitably qualified Member for an Honour, albeit that the final decison lies with the PGM and his Committee as to who actually gets one and what level. Yes, a Masonic CV which is used by many Provinces for this purpose is a handy tool in such a decision making process, but in the end it should NOT be the Province telling the Lodge who to put forward but the Lodge itself, usually the WM, Secretary, and PMs, who decide whom they will recommend to the PGM for an Honour, if they recommend anyone at all. I know of a case where a man was qualified but had caused a few problems in that Lodge, he was NOT put forward and received no Dark Blue Apron that year.
In the end I believe that the Private Lodge is paramount and that the Province should be there only to facilitate, co-ordinate and administer but NOT to dictate to the Lodges on such matters, or on their Ritual, Charitable Giving etc. Indeed, I would abolish the present Provincial Structure and Chain Gangs and replace it with a purely Administrative Regional Structure devolving power back to the Private Lodges in most matters , but I can understand why Trinityman would have his own reasons not to agree with that idea.
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Jan 22, 2005 11:08:42 GMT
I understand that the rules for honours have changed but why is there less honours available now then there were before. Is it the reason that there there is too many provincial officers,are people living longer ? if those prov officers pass away then is there not an honour available ? Or does it make a situation and a divide of them and us and that the brother who does nor receive honours is looked down on by those who have got honours. Surely a prov rank shows your standing anyway. is there going to be a deluge of disillusioned past masters leaving when they find out they were not considered good enough for provincial honours. If this is the case then do away with them completely I know many questions or m i just a bit vague with the whole honours thing ??
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bod
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Post by bod on Jan 22, 2005 11:34:04 GMT
I think it is about numbers, Lee. Just as when the birth rate falls schools get closed, as with freemasonry, less members mean less 'honours' - otherwise we would all be in dark blue aprons in ten years time. A quick look round most lodge room's shows a veritable sea of dark blue unless they have been succesful in gaining initiates. Personally I can't see the day when I get my dark blue in craft - too independent minded.
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 22, 2005 11:46:38 GMT
"Too Independent Minded, Bod?" well I got mine but I know I will go no further in that area, not that I am bothered by that. I didn't expect to get the one I did receive and while I am grateful for it I do not consider myself "bought" by it in any way. If the price of a Dark Blue Apron was one's freedom to speak and having to toe the Party Line I would rather do without.
To partly answer Lee's point I wish they would adopt the London System of only 3 grades, viz London Rank = the Rosette Appointment for those who have not gone through The Chair, London Grand Rank the First Honour, and Senior London Grand Rank as a Promotion, instead of the proliferation of "Past Provincial Senior Grand Toilet Attendant" etc and so forth! By all means keep the different Ranks for the ACTING Officers where these have some meaning as the man is actually performing that job, but simplification of the PAST purely Honorific Ranks would stop all the moaning seen at Honours Time e.g. "Brown in Pillars Lodge got PPSGD and I only got PPAGDC yet he made a mess of the Inner Workings and had to be prompted all the way by the DC".
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bod
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Post by bod on Jan 22, 2005 11:50:04 GMT
Maybe there is hope - not that I am bothered, if it happens it happens, if not - c'est la vie, it wasn't why I became a freemason. With the MGL are they keeping the same honours system?
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Post by Trinityman on Jan 22, 2005 13:43:15 GMT
It is the allocation of the Past or Honorific awards that I strongly object to direction from above. Yes I accept that the system has changed and fewer honours are available, but to my mind it is for THE LODGE to recommend any suitably qualified Member for an Honour, albeit that the final decison lies with the PGM and his Committee as to who actually gets one and what level. Yes, a Masonic CV which is used by many Provinces for this purpose is a handy tool in such a decision making process, but in the end it should NOT be the Province telling the Lodge who to put forward but the Lodge itself, usually the WM, Secretary, and PMs, who decide whom they will recommend to the PGM for an Honour, if they recommend anyone at all. I know of a case where a man was qualified but had caused a few problems in that Lodge, he was NOT put forward and received no Dark Blue Apron that year. Let's not forget that these are Provincial honours - not private or Grand Lodge. Provinces are allowed a certain number of honorific appointments or promotions (e.g. not active) and they can allocate these any way they see fit, or not at all. Until recently the system was such that Provinces always had enough to go around and so distributed them a certain number of years after a Master had completed his year in the Chair. The length of time varies from Province to Province - in Warks it is 7 years after the Chair. Depending on how active in freemasonry the individual mason had been will depend on what rank he would receive, but everyone got something, and it had become more of a milestone than a reward really. In fact there are usually some left over for the PGM to honour Master Masons of merit. Private lodges (via the Officers meeting) put their candidate forward 7 years after the Chair and that was that. PGL has never selected the candidate. Grand Lodge has recently changed the rules - previously it was dependent on the number of lodges in a province, now past ranks are calculated based on the number of freemasons. The net result is that London will see more LGR and SLGR under the MGL and PGLs will see less. Personlly I have no problem with this as London desperately needed some sort of change. Private lodges choose who will be put forward (as before) and PGL will make their decision. If a lodge decides to put someone different forward that's up to them, but it would be for them to explain to the PM concerned why he wasn't going forward. Here we are in absolute agreement, although there is much good that provinces can do that some clearly are not doing. The problem with this is that is would not achieve what you are looking for. Many of the functions you would eliminate at provincial level would end up back at the centre - creating an even larger Grand Lodge administration which I believe would ultimately be less efficient. The current structure needs to be used properly, not abused as you imply. As for chauffeur drivers and compensation packages for Senior Provincial Freemasons I can only sit aghast at your lack of understanding of how a provincial strucure works. All active officers of my province put a huge amount of personal time, effort and their own money into supporting freemasonry in their given area. ADCs and the chain gang may make between 3 and 5 visits in a week and all petrol comes out of their own pocket. They do it because they love freemasonry and anyone who wishes aggrandisement would be better looking in other directions as this simply would be far too much effort for them. I think you'd better explain what you mean by this.
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