|
Post by taylorsman on Feb 8, 2005 12:37:57 GMT
I paste here the results from the Surrey Mason, the House Mag of that Province, the results of a postal Survey of the Brethren of that Province which was carried out in 2004 and I hade mentioned on "Another Forum". I am critical of the present Provincial Structure which Iwould abolish and replace with a Federation structure where each Lodge would be autonomous but Federated to UGLE, a bit like the way that Workingmen's Clubs are affiliated to their body. Anyway, that is a topic for another thread but I am pleased that the huge Provinee of Surrey is taking some account of the views of its Ordinary Members. Let us hope that the Chain Gang will act on these and not merely chat about it then file it in a cabinet somewhere marked NFA. Your comments on the results and the idea of such a Survey would be welcome.
|
|
bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
|
Post by bod on Feb 8, 2005 13:04:03 GMT
It's a good start - and the feedback seems to be generally in line with what is being voiced across the country.
It would have been better if they had detailed how many respondents there were to the survey
|
|
|
Post by Mikepm on Feb 8, 2005 13:18:39 GMT
I may be able to find out how many masons responded, by asking the editor, i had my copy delivered yesterday.
|
|
bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
|
Post by bod on Feb 8, 2005 13:30:43 GMT
Thanks mike, it's not a big deal, but it does help to put things into persepctive
|
|
|
Post by munkholt on Feb 8, 2005 15:42:06 GMT
Seems like a good initiative.
FRIEDERICH MÜNTER (Danish Lodge of Research) is preparing an examination of "the Freemason as an individual". (Quoting): It will include a questionnaire to a cross section of brethern in the Order of Danish Freemasons. An exciting project that can have an impact on the intake of new members.
Once it's under way (and I have access to the results) I'll let you know -- the results and their implication might be interesting to your Province as well.
|
|
|
Post by cheyham on Feb 8, 2005 22:50:51 GMT
Snipped for brevity I am pleased that the huge Provinee of Surrey is taking some account of the views of its Ordinary Members. Let us hope that the Chain Gang will act on these and not merely chat about it then file it in a cabinet somewhere marked NFA. Taylorsman The tone of your post seems rather biased against the Provincial Structure, "Chain Gangs" (as you call them) and the potential outcome of such a survey. I think it should be recorded that this survey was commissioned by the PGM and his Executive with precisely the aim of finding out what members at the coal face think in Surrey. There has been a lot of time and effort (not by me incidentally) in putting this together and collating and analysing the results for it to be filed under "too difficult". It would be pointless to have done so without the intention of acting upon it. S&F
|
|
|
Post by taylorsman on Feb 9, 2005 0:28:21 GMT
I'm delighted to hear that it won't end up like many Public Enquiries and Royal Commissions and end up tied up in ribbon and filed in a drawer.
Yes, I'm not keen on the current Provincial Structures, (not particularly in Surrey which is one of the good ones but in principle). I have mentioned this many times here and on another Forum, and would like to see more power devolved to the Private Lodges. However if Surrey is blazing the trail on consultation with Ordinary Brethren then more praise to the Lt Colonel on that!
|
|
ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
|
Post by ruffashlar on Feb 9, 2005 6:10:36 GMT
Very interesting reading. Now if only that were the text of the PGL's own recommendations. One of the funny things about questionnaires is illustrated here, that while ideally they create a consensus voice of opinion, they can also give expression to the very strongest contrary opinions on the same subject. On the one hand, continue to observe the old forms and formalities; on the other, be more informal, fun and welcoming to the young. ;D Must admit I'm alarmed anyone could think a meeting that was ended by nine in the evening was a good thing. That's usually when a Degree gets into its swing. I've rarely returned from a Masonic meeting before eleven at night, and have often come in after one o'clock in the morning. Think of older Brethren, who perhaps have no-one at home, and so can stay out late, eating and drinking with friends and talking about the kind of things lads everywhere and of all ages talk about.
|
|
|
Post by cheyham on Feb 9, 2005 23:50:01 GMT
I'm delighted to hear that it won't end up like many Public Enquiries and Royal Commissions and end up tied up in ribbon and filed in a drawer. Yes, I'm not keen on the current Provincial Structures, (not particularly in Surrey which is one of the good ones but in principle). I have mentioned this many times here and on another Forum, and would like to see more power devolved to the Private Lodges. However if Surrey is blazing the trail on consultation with Ordinary Brethren then more praise to the Lt Colonel on that! TM I'm proud to be a member of Surrey province which I believe to be progressive and forward thinking (not that I'm saying other's aren't BTW it's just that my experience is in Surrey. Change is afoot but it's more evolutionary than revolutionary IMHO. As an example Provincial appointments now are very much based on a meritocracy rather than the previous "up with the rations" approach and that's public domain information. S&F
|
|
|
Post by cheyham on Feb 10, 2005 0:03:49 GMT
Very interesting reading. Now if only that were the text of the PGL's own recommendations. One of the funny things about questionnaires is illustrated here, that while ideally they create a consensus voice of opinion, they can also give expression to the very strongest contrary opinions on the same subject. On the one hand, continue to observe the old forms and formalities; on the other, be more informal, fun and welcoming to the young. ;D Must admit I'm alarmed anyone could think a meeting that was ended by nine in the evening was a good thing. That's usually when a Degree gets into its swing. I've rarely returned from a Masonic meeting before eleven at night, and have often come in after one o'clock in the morning. Think of older Brethren, who perhaps have no-one at home, and so can stay out late, eating and drinking with friends and talking about the kind of things lads everywhere and of all ages talk about. Ruff Indeed and we may find it to be so. There is a school of thought which suggests that meetings shouldn't actually Tyle until 18.30 or even 19.00 to give those working a chance to get there without having to take a half days leave. Then you ain't going to finish by 9 o'clock. Another school thinks that finishing early gets members home to the family so that side doesn't suffer. One o'clock in the morning eh?. I well remember when I was first initiated that our meetings started at 15.00 and we still didn't get home until after midnight The major part is getting the balance right and whatever Province recommends it's surely for the individual Lodge to make it's own decisions.
|
|
|
Post by Mikepm on Feb 10, 2005 2:27:19 GMT
The Lt Col is a forward thinking chap and has a good team around him, and is always open to suggestions from Lodges when ever he visits, or via the OV. The province now organise Charity Stewards & Almoner workshops, they also run 'Want to know more seminars' this is for masons & non-masons.
|
|
staffs
Administrator
Staffs
Posts: 3,295
|
Post by staffs on Feb 10, 2005 7:15:03 GMT
I have been to a meting that started at Six o clock and the time was saved by going straight into the FB after the meeting and not loitering in the bar.The finish time of the FB was about the sme as a 5pm meeting. It also gives more time in the afternoon at work and less worrying if mrs jones is going to get her boiler fixed before its time to go. I think later start meetings would see an increase in numbers from those who just have no chance of making a 5pm start.
|
|
bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
|
Post by bod on Feb 10, 2005 7:59:18 GMT
For weekday meetings 6pm is a sensible start time for most people to have finished work and get to where they have to be.
|
|
|
Post by Mikepm on Feb 10, 2005 11:48:23 GMT
One of the Lodges i belong to starts at 6.0, and that makes a big difference to me, as, i don't have to take 1/2 days holiday or juggle my diary at work so that i can leave at 1.30 to get home wash change & get to the meeting for 4/4.30. The 6.0 start does some go on untill 10.00 but that just depends on what work goes on in the temple, but normally finishes between 9.0/9.30. If people want to have a drink then there is always time after the festive board has finished. The start time is up to each individual lodge. Saying that, i went to an installation in Sussex last year and the lodge had to put back the start time by an hour, and cancel the drinks and snack they have when they call off, this has only happened twice i think in the history of that lodge........ the reason being the Prov GM couldn't get there on time!
|
|
|
Post by taylorsman on Feb 10, 2005 12:11:24 GMT
Mike, on a side issue from your posting, I remember one Installation, again in Sussex, where the Chain Gang were unable to attend as they were Installing the then new PGM (David Llewellyn) the following day and had a dress rehearsal that evening. I have to say it was one of the best Installations I have attended! Our own Grand Officer was "Guest of Honour" taking on the role of the Provincial Visitor, everyone was relaxed both in the Temple and at the Festive Board and gave of their best as there was no pressure. Perhaps that's the way to go and echoes London practice where the only prominente to attend an Installation will be the VGO and even he doesn't always attend, ours didn't at Brixton 1949 last Saturday .
I feel that 6.00pm is a good time to start, many of the Higher Degrees do so yet some of the Ceremonies there take as long as a Craft First or Third to perform. To save time Secretaries can circulate the Minutes etc to Brethern, NOT read them out, can filter the chaff out of the Risings, who wants to know about a July Garden party when the Lodge is meeting again in October, and Charity Stewards and Almoners can again use their commonsense as to when their report can be tabled and when it needs to be read out in Open Lodge, for example a report on the health of a sick Brother he has visited. Time in the bar can be kept to 15 minutes and speeches and replies kept brief at the Festive Board without losing any of the Traditions such as Taking Wine or Toasting. Thus the meal could be over by 9.30pm although nowadays few consider 10.00pm as all that late, look how late Pubs, Clubs restaurants stay open now compared to 20 years ago or so. I have no problem with a Meeting starting at 6.00pm if I am on early shift that week which ends at 10.00pm.
There will always be Lodges etc which prefer to meet at 4.30pm to suit those who want this time, as there will be Saturday meetings to cater for the likes of myself and even Daylight Lodges meeting at Noon on weekdays for those who find that more suitable. If your Lodge etc meets at the wrong time one can usually join another more suitable, I have done so, at least in urban areas although this could be a problem in rural parts with only a few Lodges meeting there.
|
|
|
Post by munkholt on Feb 10, 2005 12:29:06 GMT
My future lodge assembles at 19.00, rituals are finished a little after 21.00, and then follows what you call the festive board and coffee - the night always ends at 23.00. 19.00 seems to be very standard here in Denmark.
Now, since I haven't experienced an evening yet I can't really comment on whether that's too long or too late, but I gotta admit it does seem a lot of time to spend at the table (the ritual is what got me into this).
|
|
|
Post by Gaudi on Feb 11, 2005 11:08:24 GMT
There is a school of thought which suggests that meetings shouldn't actually Tyle until 18.30 or even 19.00 to give those working a chance to get there without having to take a half days leave. Then you ain't going to finish by 9 o'clock. The usual time for tyling of all constitution lodges in this part of the world (New Zealand) is 7:30- but then most lodges here don't dine (we are expected to have something before we come and supper afterwards). It also means that it is not at all unusual to leave the lodgerooms at 11-12 o'clock and often later. Its just what we do and I think a lot of the discussion of the pros and cons of tyling time actually come down to what brethren are used to. I certainly know when it was suggested that we tyle earlier a few years ago, there was much muttering from the galleries and so we kept our usual times. Cheers Roel
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2005 21:07:34 GMT
I attended an installation in Dorset on Thursday night. A wonderful evening, a good turnout, ritual well performed and all those attending (probably about 70) had a great time.
It tyled at 1630 and I left the bar,along with most others, at about 2330. So most of us had spent about 6 and a half hours in the Masonic hall. The dilemma is how to ensure these evenings remain so rewarding without spending the equivalent of a working day there!
I am in the lucky. temporary, position of being able to see these meetings through from start to end, others will not be.
If we are to improve our strength as an organisation we need to fit our timings to the needs and constraints of prospective members and ALL work to maintaining interest.
A democratic organisation is requisite for this - there are good provinces and bad provinces - I would like to see a way in which the rank and file can submit ideas etc to the "powers that be" and follow up the progress of their submission - we need to find a way to accommodate enthusiastic, willing members without diluting the tenets and principles of the craft.
No easy answer, we need to see some flexibility and openness in the senior echelons.
Views???
Kevin
|
|
|
Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Feb 12, 2005 21:41:57 GMT
In CoMasonry our meetings ALWAYS start at 1900 so we tyle at 1850. Length depends upon what ceremony or not is being performed. Generally we continue to about 2230 or so followed by a light supper, here in NZ only tea and cakes, no booze. So we are generally home by2330/2400.
Most of our work is done in temple, with informal discussion aftrewards, and the occasional get together during the month.
|
|
|
Post by taylorsman on Feb 13, 2005 8:39:24 GMT
With you there Kevin. A start would be to have an elected, and I mean PROPERLY elected with a secret ballot, representative or two from each Lodge, one a PM, one an Ordinary MM who has not been through the Chair, to attend and vote at Prov Grand Lodge Meetings. These men would be in for say 3 years and the Ordinary Member would be able to give them their views as one does with an MP or a Local Councillor.
As to times of Meetings I feel that there should be choice. I would like to see additional pieces of information against a Lodge etc entry in the Yearbooks. The time it meets not just the day of the month and the Ritual Worked, thus Brixton Lodge would have "3.00 to 3.30 pm, Taylors" , Civic would have "5.30pm, Sussex".
For some early Meetings are desirable, for others a later start say 6.00 or even 6.30pm would be ideal, even if this meant a buffet rather than a banquet afterwards, or non dining Lodges were those who wish can go for a meal afterwards if they want, others could go home.
|
|