staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Jan 25, 2005 17:09:24 GMT
As a relatively newbie could you give me some background and history on the Duke Of Sussex and his relevance to freemasonry in England.
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 25, 2005 17:19:19 GMT
He was Frederick Augustus Duke of Sussex a younger brother of George IV and the First GM of UGLE when it came into being in 1815 from the Union of the Antients and Moderns. He was to blame for de-Christianising and bowdlerising much of our Ritual and supressed the Higher Degrees during his rule. There is a large silver table decoration dedicated to him on show at GQS (as is his marble statue in one of the corridors). I often feel that the decoration was paid for by Ritualists glad to see the old £$%^ dead at last. He is buried at Kensall Green Cemetery in London as he married beneath his rank and class and was thus not buried with the rest of the Royals. If I visit it WON'T be to lay a wreath on his grave I assure you!
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Post by Jumile on Jan 25, 2005 17:36:36 GMT
Perhaps I'm misreading TM's response, and I certainly know little about the Duke other than this particular issue, but from what I can see the de-Christianising of the Craft has probably breathed into it a new life. If it were still a Christian organisation, then I certainly couldn't be a member, in much the same way I currently (and sadly) cannot be a Knight Templar. Despite having been a member of the Order of St John as a St John's Ambulance Cadet in my youth (a corporal no less, having had to study the Order as part of my NCO training).
Mind you, a number of the Freemasons I've met have never set foot in a church, let alone being men of religion. So I guess that comes down to the age old automatic "C of E" response many English people give to the Census...
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 25, 2005 17:52:21 GMT
Possibly Jumile, but I and many others feel that he threw out the baby with the bathwater compared say to Scots Freemasonry where those Degrees and Orders which are not specifically Christian are open to Jews, Islamics and believers in God who are of no stated religion, etc but they have still retained much of the old traditions , references to Lodges of St John etc.
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Post by Jumile on Jan 25, 2005 20:44:32 GMT
Not wishing to appear to be hijacking Staffs' thread here, but is that not also the case here in England? There are numerous any-religion orders (OSM, Mark, RAM, etc) and Christian-only orders (Rose Croix, KT, etc). How does that differ between Scotland and post-Duke England? (See staffs, it is relevant to your thread ).
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Post by middlepillar on Jan 26, 2005 8:48:25 GMT
Staffs It is said that The Duke actually joined Rose Croix, he was so horrified by the number of degrees and workload, that he insisted in 'getting rid of the lot'. No distinction between Christian and other side orders, he just did not want anything to do with any of them. 2006 is the 150 anniversary of Mark Grand Lodge and I think it was started within 3 weeks of the Duke finally stating that he did not want anything to do with them. He had held all the Warrants/Charters for these degrees up until then. Anyway all of you who like a party will be pleased to know that they are hiolding a big one in 2006 to celebrate the formation. I will let you know more details when I get them myself So all those of you who are thinking of joining The Mark, hurry up or you might miss out on a Soiree ;D
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 26, 2005 8:53:24 GMT
Will there be a Commemorative Breast Jewel?
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Post by middlepillar on Jan 26, 2005 9:17:10 GMT
One would think so Steve, as soon as I know I will post the info on here!
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bod
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UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
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Post by bod on Jan 26, 2005 10:12:21 GMT
Mark is a wonderful degree - one that all MM's should consider if time allows. I was under the impression that the 'de-christianisation' of the craft took place later than the 19th centruy, and happened around the 1930's - but there again I've had very little sleep lately.....
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 26, 2005 10:23:57 GMT
No Bod, that was The Craft in England going secret as there was fear of what would happen if the Nazis invaded in 1940 as seemed very likely at the time and it then looked as if they could well have defeated us. Taking into account their hatred of Freemasonry, to them part of the "Jewish-Bolshevick-Masonic" Conspiracy to Rule the World, and their persecution of Freemasons as evinced in the Channel Islands, English Freemasonry became very secretive. What a pity when Hitler was defeated that we did not immediately revert to our pre-WW2 openness with Masons in Regalia laying Foundation Stones of Public Buildings etc, as this secrecy has done us nothing but harm, but that is the subject for another thread if anyone cares to open it.
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bod
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UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
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Post by bod on Jan 26, 2005 10:57:34 GMT
Thanks TM.
I've always thought it odd that we still have that restriction on regalia in public in UGLE-land, something I would dearly love to see rescinded.
Does the same restriction apply to the orders not managed by GQS?
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 26, 2005 11:21:49 GMT
Not to the same extent. I have seen KTs in full Regalia (apart from their Swords) at a Church Parade.
It was always a great pity to me years ago on Remembrance Day in the Old Steine in Brighton. The business I then worked for used to lay a wreath and I was present with our representative. After the Mayor and MPs had laid their wreaths the DC called on each organisation to follow. I heard the RAOB (The Buffaloes) being announced and two men wearing the sashes and breast jewels of that Order stepped forward to lay their wreath. Now I really felt sad and angry that the PGM of Sussex was not also there, in his full regalia, to do likewise for Sussex Freemasonry. We are too Po faced about this and like you Bod I would wish to see this rule torn up and binned.
I do notice from pictures in the press that when Local Lodges present a cheque to a Charity etc the WM and Charity Steward or whoever were their Collars but I feel they should also wear their Aprons.
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staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Jan 26, 2005 19:29:08 GMT
Staffs 2006 is the 150 anniversary of Mark Grand Lodge and I think it was started within 3 weeks of the Duke finally stating that he did not want anything to do with them. He had held all the Warrants/Charters for these degrees up until then. Anyway all of you who like a party will be pleased to know that they are hiolding a big one in 2006 to celebrate the formation. I will let you know more details when I get them myself So all those of you who are thinking of joining The Mark, hurry up or you might miss out on a Soiree ;D Chris,Steve. I may well be able to go to that one if things go to plan.
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