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Post by middlepillar on Feb 9, 2005 22:40:10 GMT
I popped into SuttonMasonic centre this evening and met a chap who had finished his meeting and was waiting to go in to dine, he told me he was a 'Rhodesian' Mason originally and had moved on to Papua New Guinea and had eventually moved to England. Anyway he said the Royal Arch was governed by the Mark and that he had passed the veils joined the Royal Ark Mariners, taken his Excellent Masters Degree and done the Babylonis pass!. He then said he had all the jewels in one in miniature, I said I had never seen a miniature Chapter/Mark/ Royal Ark jewel, so he promptly too them out of his case! And this is the photo I took (If I have pasted it correctly from Image Shack) img204.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img204&image=image000058ch.jpgJust thought you guys would be interested to see something you dont see often ;D They are arranged in the order he took the degrees. Mark, Excellent Master, Chapter, Royal Ark Mariner, Babylonish Pass (part of our AMD) and finally Cryptic. Brilliant arent they?
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Post by Two Ton Ted on Feb 9, 2005 22:51:10 GMT
Bro MiddlePillar, I hope the brother you spoke with finds peace and security in England.
I would not have guessed that the Mark governed the R. A. But if you say so............ I will believe it.
For my own part, I would have said the R.A. was autonomous, and if it was Governed by anyone, it would not be the Mark.
S & F, T T T.
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Post by middlepillar on Feb 9, 2005 22:57:18 GMT
Ted
That is the case in UGLE.
Elsewhere Some constitutions were set up entirely differently from us.
In this guys constitution The Mark Governed these orders In Scotland it is different again (Bob can help here to save me making a mistake) Also interestingly if the chap had wanted to join KT he would of had to go to Hong Kong. He did say that he had joined all the Orders he could whilst there, so there were many that were not available to him.
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Post by Two Ton Ted on Feb 9, 2005 23:02:24 GMT
Bro MiddlePillar, I knew you would tune me in!
I bow to your wisdom. Kind regards, S & F, Ted.
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Post by cheyham on Feb 9, 2005 23:24:03 GMT
MP
Yes they are very unusual and I'm sure he was quite fascinating to talk to. Thanks for the pic. Sometimes these bars of miniatures crop up on Ebay where I graze occasionally but I really hadn't twigged the import before.
MP if you mean Grove Road I was there last night! Why am I never in the right place at the right time?
Yes - they are indeed brilliant.
S&F
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Post by cheyham on Feb 9, 2005 23:39:10 GMT
TTT
In amplification of what Middlepillar has just said I think what he described is the usual progression under York Rite in the USA where the order is:
In a Craft (Symbolic) Lodge - EA, FC and MM
In a Chapter - Mark, Excellent Master, RA, Royal and Select Masters
In a Commandery - KT
I believe Scotland to be similar where for example a RA Mason under the English Constitution can only visit a Scottish RA Chapter for the full duration of the meeting if he has taken Mark and RSM as well. I think there is some mechanism for imparting the EM degree to an English RA Mason who is also in Mark provided he swears not to reveal what he has learn't (the burn before reading bit) I also understand that in EC we work the EM degree as part of RSM - but I'm not a member.
If I'm wrong someone please correct me.
S&F
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 10, 2005 0:20:22 GMT
Very interesting, first time I have seen Masonic Minatures outside of Allied.
I attend a Lodge that meets at Grove Road and I think I have met this Brother.
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Post by mrmason on Feb 10, 2005 8:04:18 GMT
To clarify things with regards to Scotland, The craft works 1,2,3 degrees and then the 4th being the mark. In the RAC they work Mark ( if not advanced in lodge) EM and RA degree. The EM degree is not the same as that worked in the cryptic in England. In the Scottish cryptic we work R&S masters and Super Excellent Masters degrees. In the Ark Mariners we work the Mariners degree and what is known as the Babylonish Pass or Red Cross Degrees( Knight of the Sword, Knight of the East and Knight of the East and West). This Babylonish pass while similar to that worked in the allied in England is not the same. A Red Cross knight in Scotland cannot sit in that part of the Allied and likewise a member of the Allied cannot sit in the Babylonish Pass. The SGRAC of Scotland governs all theses degrees incuding the mark but like I said in another post the GLoS is allowed to conferr the mark as it is an extension of the 2nd degree. The Red Cross degrees in Scotland are the same as those worked in Ireland and USA and known as the Council of Knight Masons. These degrees however while similar are not the same as the the red cross knight degree as worked in the York Rite in the USA. These Red cross degrees were actualy worked in the Preceptories in Ireland until 1924 when they were ditched by Great Priory of Ireland and were formed into a body of their own.
Our Grand Scribe E has been initiated into the Allied in England to see what the degrees are and if there is a possibility to bring them to Scotland.
Hi Middlepillar, having looked at the picture of the minatures they are all scottish, and you can still buy them today new however they do cost a packet.
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Post by middlepillar on Feb 10, 2005 8:17:05 GMT
Bob
I knew you could ellucidate further, many thanks.
Out of interest if you can still buy them, how much do they cost?
Cheyham
Were you attending the Lodge Metting or at L.O.I.? or just propping up the bar. (I had dropped my kids off to indoor net practice and popped in for an hour between 6.45 & 7.45pm). You always get such a friendly welcome there that I will probably do it again!
Steve
I think the Lodge was called Springwall?
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Post by mrmason on Feb 10, 2005 8:23:53 GMT
Chris, Not sure of the price, but a friend on mine was going to get them all made from either Victoria Regalia in Edinburgh, or TKS in Bedworth. I'll be up in Edinburgh on 1st March to meet up with William and take him to GLoS museum/library. If I have time I'll pop in to Victoria regalia and ask.
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Post by cheyham on Feb 10, 2005 20:06:31 GMT
Cheyham Were you attending the Lodge Metting or at L.O.I.? or just propping up the bar. (I had dropped my kids off to indoor net practice and popped in for an hour between 6.45 & 7.45pm). You always get such a friendly welcome there that I will probably do it again! I was at the Craft Lodge meeting. Funny - we closed at just after 7 and dined at 7.30 so must have been in the bar at the same time as you. Yes Ivan and his team are very friendly - a great improvement. Still seems strange to be served by a GO though! Sorry - should I have posted that on the Stewarding Thread? S&F
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Post by middlepillar on Feb 10, 2005 20:19:56 GMT
Well Cheyham I was standing at the end of the bar talking the SW and his son (The JW)and there was an offer of a drink from the Fellowcraft!
Are you a member or were you visiting?
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Post by cheyham on Feb 10, 2005 20:21:27 GMT
To clarify things with regards to Scotland, MrMason Thanks very much. S&F
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