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Post by a on Feb 20, 2005 1:48:47 GMT
You can tell that I have nothing better to do this time of the morning, so I surfed here. The advertising bar had the "Jesus the Freemason" in it so I gave it a click, here is the link, www.shellschoolofknowledge.com.au/Anyone any comments?
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Feb 20, 2005 22:45:51 GMT
I don't really have much to say in recommendation of the rather sideshow-barkerish tubthumping of the site - the only line missing was Roll up! Roll up!
However, it has long been a suspicion of mine that among the true secrets of Masonry, concealed in time and lost through ignorance, is the secret tradition that Jesus himself was the founder of the Craft.
My imagination is encouraged in this direction because, for example, pretty much every other important figure in the Judaeo-Christian system - Moses, Solomon, Noah, the Saints John, etc. - gets a mention somewhere either in Freemasonry or its Additional Degrees.
Also, the only other mention in European culture of a widow's son being raised from the dead is in the New Testament, and Jesus is the person who does it.
Incidentals, I know. I don't pretend to make a cogent hypothesis out of them, only the suggestion that these fragmentary evidences at least indicate a hole in the traditions which come down to us.
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Post by leonardo on Feb 20, 2005 23:19:54 GMT
This subject has been touched upon before: Was Jesus a Freemason?But it an interesting topic and well deserves a revisit. IMO.
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Post by a on Feb 21, 2005 7:44:41 GMT
Sorry Leo
I did not check the archives. I just found myself on the PC in the early hours, surfed here, and the advertising banner screamed at me. In the future I will check the archives before starting a thread.
But if you break Freemasonry down to its basics, it really does offer a very simple message. A message that like so many things in life can get lost as physical structures are built around it.
I mean if Jesus reincarnated today here and now, and physically walked our Earth again, I wonder what he would think at some of the things that he would see done in his name in our world today.
Personally I think that he would shed some tears.
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 21, 2005 8:16:17 GMT
Stewart, I remember reading a wryly humorous article on that very theme. I will paraphrase it as I do not have the original.
" After two thousand years Jesus comes back to have a second attempt at the mission he first engaged on in ancient Judea, but this time in modern London. How would he be greeted?
The Roman Catholic Church would dismiss him as a Heretic and tell its millions of followers to listen to the Pope, their Bishops and Priests as usual as THEY were the One True Church. Ironically so would the Evangelicals as there was no quote they could cite in the Bible to justify his appearance in that form at this time and place, (you know how they always append a Bible reference to every quote they use to bolster their argument). The Right in Politics would condemn him as a dangerous revolutionary but the Left would attack him for offering only "Pie in the Sky" and for his refusal to sanction the use of force, all that stuff about "Turning the other cheek", and "Those who Live by the Sword" doesn't tie in with overthrow of some regime or system .
Finally the good old Church of England (Anglican Communion) would huff and puff then hold a "Lambeth Commission" which would take 5 years to come up with a slushy compromise which would please no one at all and leave the man in the pew to believe or not believe in the man claiming to be Jesus if they wished to or not, as long as the Parish paid its Quota!"
A bit cynical but I feel that Christ would be crucified by Indifference and not by Wood and Nails this time round.
I can follow the logic of Ruff's posting on this but do not as yet know of any Masonic Order which claims that Christ was a Mason or that he founded Freemasonry as we know it. It could however be said that Freemasonry was inspired by his teachings in many ways and that the original Freemasons, "St John's Masonry" has a far more Christian ethos interlarding it than its modern UGLE Craft derivative.
Without breaching any Obligation would say that Jesus is very central to the Masonic Order I have just entered.
Finally not being one, I do not know what the view of Martinists would be on this. I do understand that they are a very Christian Order. Perhaps if permitted and any of our posters is in that Order he might care to comment or PM me if he prefers?
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Post by a on Feb 21, 2005 8:39:51 GMT
Taylorsman
I once had a discussion very similar to this with some Evangelicalists who took it upon themselves and decided that I was in great need of saving (from Freemasonry amongst other things).
They invited me to talk to them about Jesus and about how he can save me, and one of the nights (there were several) I took the Gospel of Thomas with me. They were horrified. And I mean horrified.
But I digress. Sorry.
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 21, 2005 9:18:44 GMT
"I took the Gospel of Thomas with me. They were horrified. And I mean horrified. "
I'm not surprised Stewart. That Gospel isn't in THEIR Bible, it is not what they are told to believe, you disrupted their programming. I have found that such people simply cannot think outside the box. To justify their beliefs they parrot out the Bible , always followed by the Chapter and Verse, as if this somehow will stop any counter argument dead in its tracks like some Magic Words or Incantation. They are really fed up and annoyed when it simply does not work and their protagonist cites some other source or even worse for them, their very own Bible to refute their point. I simply do not waste my time with the likes of them and politely, to begin with anyway, tell them to go on their way if they doorstep me or stop me in the street.
I have been called a "Satanist" by some when they find out I am a Freemason, if they only knew what I know they would realise the utter falseness and stupidity of such a remark. Alas, given the Secrecy inherent in Freemasonry they can not gain such proper and true knowledge without joining themselves and that is something they simply will not do having their minds made up a priori that Freemasonry is "Evil" and against their version of Christianity. Even if they are invited to an Open Day at a Masonic Temple or Hall they will either refuse to attend, or if they do will respond "You only showed us what you want us to see, and hid away all the real things" . I have been told some really sensational stories about what we are supposed to get up to in Masonic Meetings, but have yet to see them!
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Post by leonardo on Feb 21, 2005 10:00:34 GMT
Sorry Leo I did not check the archives. I just found myself on the PC in the early hours, surfed here, and the advertising banner screamed at me. In the future I will check the archives before starting a thread. No need to apologise. I've already stated that I believe this topic is well worth another visit and I'm delighted that this has happened. Although I do not understand these things as well as I would like to, I do, however, find it all very interesting. As for being repetitive (I prefer forgetful .... Not too long ago I started two inentical threads in the space of a week and was greatly embarrassed by Offramp's decision to bring it to everyone's attention! So, I guess I am the authority on such things.
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Agent J
Member
On a Mission from God...
Posts: 127
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Post by Agent J on Feb 21, 2005 10:09:51 GMT
I remember the Jehova's Witnesses paying me a visit a few years back. Thinking it would get rid of them a bit sharpish, I told the lady in question that I was a Freemason. She took three very deliberate steps backwards, nearly knocking the small boy she brought with her over, and said "Oh, so you don't believe in God at all then". Charming lady.
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Post by ingo on Feb 21, 2005 10:22:09 GMT
Well, Jesus father Joseph was a operative mason, the bible-word "tekton" means tyler or bricklayer. Joseph built houses - wood and in stone. Maybe Jesus also choose this profession first. But I doubt that he didi masonic initiation work as we do to-day.
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Post by middlepillar on Feb 21, 2005 14:08:55 GMT
For some reason I feel very uncomfortable discussing this topic, and I dont know why apart from my absolute belief that whats between me and my God is private, and where that fits in with this topic I dont know!
I can go along with Ruff especially with his logical reasoning, however I do not have any belief Jesus was a Freemason, but I do passionately believe 'Good Men' inspire us to go on to better things and be better people, now I dont think many people would argue that Jesus was a good man (whether you believe he is the only son of God or not) and therefore would of course have been a good mason. And the fact is in some of our Christian Orders especially the Red Cross of Constantine Jesus plays an extremely important part in the Degree. First through the conversion of Constantine to Christianity and in The Appendant Orders the magnificent ceremony is the only real comparison of the Story of the Trinity with The Three Grand Masters.
To really get a proper understanding of these comparisons and indeed get your own opinion you would of course need to experience the ceremony and for some it may not be something you want to do, it does however give you a chance to look at the question and think about it in a more informed way. I am sorry if I sound elitist this is just a fact and I dont mean to offend anyone.
With regard to Martinism, I will say this, Martinism is very Christian in its outlook and you need to be a Christian to be a member, but the Order was founded by Papus in the late 1700s it was not founded by St Martin, the similarity is this Both St Martin and Jesus were pretty inspirational people, Jesus has a whole religion created after him, St Martin to his credit had an interesting Order of Philosophy created in his name, he himself would of been too humble to ever do it himself.
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Agent J
Member
On a Mission from God...
Posts: 127
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Post by Agent J on Feb 21, 2005 15:30:32 GMT
Bro Middlepillar, Hopefully I'll be joining RCC in April (if the form comes in time).
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 21, 2005 16:03:32 GMT
Jesus a Freemason , I don’t know about that. But there are certain incidents in the bible that make you think?
I have cut the lineage list down but we see hear , from a Freemasons point of view, there is a Masonic connection, in part. Matthew 1 Salmon the father of Boaz David was the father of Solomon, 13Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
17Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.
Isaiah 26:7 7 The path of the righteous is level; O upright One, you make the way of the righteous smooth. Ezekiel 43:16 The altar hearth is square, twelve cubits long and twelve cubits wide. Amos 7:7 7 This is what he showed me: The Lord was standing by a wall that had been built true to plumb, with a plumb line in his hand. Zechariah 4:10 "Who despises the day of small things? Men will rejoice when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. Isaiah 44:13 13 The carpenter measures with a line and makes an outline with a marker; he roughs it out with chisels and marks it with compasses. He shapes it in the form of man, of man in all his glory, that it may dwell in a shrine. John 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”<br>Now like the Bible codes I am sure you can search and find more evidence. But is not the simple truth, that there is in all good things a common thread, a recipe for survival of the human spirit. Don’t Kill Love each other Don’t tell lies Don’t steal etc. etc. and these common denominators must in all successful philosophy become part of the whole. Therefore the link is common sense.
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