giovanni
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Post by giovanni on May 16, 2007 16:28:19 GMT
Darkness can be a test: sometimes tha GAOTU puts us to test, and we have to overwhelm it. Let me show a picture of Michelangelo's Prigioni, (prisoners) When the artist showed them to the Pope, this remarked that the statues were not yet finished. To the contrary, they were: Michelangelo's genius points at the man's effort to escape from matter, darkness, and to go toward the Light.
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Post by therondunn on May 16, 2007 16:39:09 GMT
Ok, to escape from darkness to the light. That is exactly what I have been saying, and why I am so interested in Karen's position that we should seek the middle path, between the darkness and the light.
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on May 16, 2007 16:45:08 GMT
Maybe she intends that white and black depend on the perspective, as in the tessellated pavement.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on May 16, 2007 19:45:33 GMT
Pretty much but . . . we're talking light and dark here. When, exactly, does light stop being light and dark start being dark? For me, the key place is where black meet white, on the m*c p*ment. Not smack dab in the middle of only the white squares.
For there can be no light without dark. And vice versa.
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on May 16, 2007 19:59:45 GMT
I read a beautiful book written by Peter Kingsley, "In the dark places of wisdom". It's about Parmenides's philosophy's ground: the One.
Man reads of the sun's journey, when it sets.
The Sun enters the Tartar. Everything is feminine: the horses which draw the cart, the goddesses who receive it, etc.. A new life is going to develop in the mother's womb.
For Parmenides, light rests in darkness. Also Presocratics thought of it in the same manner.
Life is balance, between darkness and light, and what we call "evil" is not actually such. It pertains to the GAOTU's plan. We must keep the faith.
Nevertheless men are on the brink: they have to strive to pursue good, ad avoid evil, if they are not fully aware of what evil is: their conscience shall guide them. Let's abide by the Golden Rule!
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on May 16, 2007 20:11:42 GMT
Bro. Theron,
In the interests of sharing perspectives and for no other reason . . .
You mention you face only into the light. I am assuming you are a MM. I'm also assuming a good bit about your Obedience. In mine, the only times masters are permitted to sit in the North (with their backs to darkness) is when the southwest is full. Otherwise, all MM and FCs always sit with their backs to the brightest light, facing into darkness.
As I mentioned before, I believe this is so because and FC and MM, presumably, is progressed enough to see the light in the darkness. However, an EA is not so well developed. And so faces into the light.
Anyway, if the ritual is showing me that, then I want to see it. And not be afraid.
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Post by hollandr on May 16, 2007 22:26:24 GMT
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Post by maat on May 17, 2007 1:37:53 GMT
That is my guide toward the light. There is no need to turn and look back at the darkness, the light will suffice. So I again ASK THE QUESTION: Why would a man seeking to be a better man, in service to his g-d, his country, his family and himself seek a middle path between good and bad? I think the word 'balanced' is the lost word here... or equilibrium or stability. No good being so good that you only want to sit on a mountain top and think of God... that appears to me to be a selfish option. That would be a case of forsaking God's beautiful creation and trying to run back home....by yourself. I think the Big idea is to return Home with all of our companions. This may necessitate seeing the Light, and then going back into the darkness to lead others by a way they know not. As you progress to higher degrees your ritual will give you just these instructions. There are some who work to take Earth to Heaven, there are others who work to bring Heaven to Earth. Which is more valid? I don't know... But I rather think that there must have been a reason why God created the world, and why every created thing involves a duality.... creation can not, will not exist without this law, which is a God given law. Without light you cannot have darkness.... two pillars each end of a pole (which has a middle)... instead of thinking of light and dark as two different things maybe we should consider them as an entirety. All the above does not mean we should not try to be the best person we can be, our instinct tells us this is a truth. But I have an idea that as we progress in wisdom we will understand more fully the part that darkness has to play in the Plan. Maat
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Post by therondunn on May 17, 2007 5:50:55 GMT
We are confusing symbolism with something else. The original question had to do with good and evil, not dark and light. Dark and light are symbols for good and evil only, and as a symbol, this one is based on primal monkey fear of the dark.
My question is not about symbolism, but walking toward good and eschewing bad. Karen, I understand the SYMBOLISM of the north, a place of darkness, but we started off addressing good and bad, and a comment about seeking the middle path between them.
Maat, good point about getting the light and taking it back to the poor beknighted fellow creatures that do not have it, and the selflessness of such actions. But again, the comment was about finding a middle path between good and bad. I am not trying to be a pendent here, but simply trying to explore the thought a bit.
So, can we talk about this path between good and bad, and why we should seek the middle between the two and forego the talk about darkness and light? Thanks
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Post by middlepillar on May 17, 2007 9:08:38 GMT
Theron Please do not get angry with me! I have re posted what I said in relation to what you said. Please try to see the humour in my reply! Middlepillar; I DO have a lot to learn, that is the purpose of life. However, I have nothing to learn from darkness. Embracing darkness only makes you dirty and dark. Your not so very subtle put down is noted. I asked for light, for a rational, and offered what I thought. What I get in return is a not so gentle slap in the face. Is that how you really teach? quote] hmmm, I guess I just don't agree. There is NOTHING to be learned from darkness. I will embrace the light and travel east in search of more light. There can be, in my opinion, no balance between good and evil. One must strive to the good and eschew the evil. To seek the middle is mediocrity, and not where good men should be seeking. Just my opinion, you understand. Theron With all due respect, then you still have much to learn.I do not normally try to be clever but I thought you may of got it. I was also careful to put in the words with due respect. I do not want to fight with you, but I would appreciate you not being quite so aggressive or 'touchy'. I started this thread on The basis of discussing whether or not Good & Evil are opposite, I suggested they were not. If you then try to make Dark and Light the discussion and whether they are opposite it becomes a totally different discussion! Dark and Light are opposites IMHO Good and Evil are not. Now if you want to discuss and explore that statement I would be happy and interested to do so! With respect to Darkness and Light I believe (In fact without being a know all I know) there is a lot to be learnt from darkness. But then again I am not using darkness as a replacement for evil! I will just have to disagree with your interpretation.
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Post by therondunn on May 17, 2007 15:23:21 GMT
I have no problem with your disagreement. In fact, I have used the terms, but this started based on a comment Karen made regarding a middle path, but all this esoteric discussion about light is not useful to me... though I appreciate the information, I am simply trying to understand Karen's comment about seeking a path between good and bad.
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Post by a on May 17, 2007 17:03:03 GMT
I am simply trying to understand Karen's comment about seeking a path between good and bad. Theron some thoughts that may help you here:- 1. Have you ever been in a situation where "part of you wants to do one thing" while "part of you wants to do another"? Even something simple, like go to the shops or nah I can't be bothered. Or perhpas you once bit the head of someone in anger and knew it was wrong when you did it. If you can think of such a moment then try to focus on the two opposing "parts" of you. Reflect on it over the coming months, and this may help you pierce through. 2. Who was bad in WW2? As an American you may say the Japanese or Germans. Who was good? You may say the Americans, British, French etc. But if you happened to be born in Japan not America, who would you think you would say was bad at that time? Or if you had been born as a Natzi in Germany would you have considered Germany to be bad? You see while we are fractured, good and bad are easily discernable, but only from our personal viewpoint, based on the laws, customes, and mores of our individual society. When you rise up to look at our planet as a whole, you can see that what is considered to be good and what is bad does vary dramatically across the globe. When you can do this, you can see the middle way - and that good can be bad, and bad, good. One people, one planet, one ecosystem. Lots of isolated fragments, each with their own goods and bads. Dont know if any of that helps, but I hope it does. reflect on it over the months and you may be in for a beautiful journey.
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staffs
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Post by staffs on May 17, 2007 17:54:50 GMT
I have no problem with your disagreement. In fact, I have used the terms, but this started based on a comment Karen made regarding a middle path, but all this esoteric discussion about light is not useful to me... though I appreciate the information, I am simply trying to understand Karen's comment about seeking a path between good and bad. Theron, if the discussion or any discussion come to that is not useful to you then you may wish not to post on it until you have taken the time to think about and understand it . Please take the time to appreciate the information. Try being a little less hostile to others even if you may not fully agree with them. You promised that you would try to be a little more understanding of others and not so aggressive with your posts.
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Post by wayseer on May 17, 2007 23:47:16 GMT
With respect to Darkness and Light I believe ... there is a lot to be learnt from darkness. But then again I am not using darkness as a replacement for evil! The subconscious submerging of the concept of darkness with the belief in evil is one of the tricks of our learning - Western learning that it is. Which sort of suits us predominately white folk rather well - and not so accidentially. Many of us do it without too much though - well, it does has pretty deep roots. Our love affair with all things white is cultural - it has nothing to ethics - although it may well influence ethics. In other words, painting things black and white does not make those objects good or evil What of the darkened room in the 3rd? What of the blindfold in the 1st? And it still takes a single match to dispell all the darkness.
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Post by middlepillar on May 18, 2007 22:47:29 GMT
I have no problem with your disagreement. In fact, I have used the terms, but this started based on a comment Karen made regarding a middle path, but all this esoteric discussion about light is not useful to me... though I appreciate the information, I am simply trying to understand Karen's comment about seeking a path between good and bad. Theron First, I know you are travelling to Saudi soon, I wish you a safe and successful trip. This Topic started as a question from me about Good and Evil, it subsequently turned into other things including light and Dark, I do think we have a problem with the American/English understanding/interpreation of what we are trying to say There are lots of examples of finding good in Darkness (Think of the Dark Room in Rose Croix) I completely understand why you are saying you must walk to the light, but in the context of what I am trying to put over is that there is good to be found in everything even darkness. And that which is harder to obtain is often the most prized of possesions.
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Post by penfold on May 19, 2007 11:41:42 GMT
I was reading thru this thread and thewords of the 23rd Psalm came to mind, I'm still thinking on whats been posted in conjunction with those words, will let you know if I come to any conclusions....
The Lord is my Shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: He leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for His name' sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: For thou art with me; Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies; Thou annointest my head with oil; My cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever.
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on May 19, 2007 17:09:23 GMT
The topic posted by Wayseer reminds me the mith of Orpheus and Euridice.
Orpheus was a singer, a musician, worshipper of Dyonisus, the god of bliss.
I think you know the story: he married Euridice, who later died. Orpheus then descended to Ades and asked the God to be allowed to take his wife back to life. The god agreed, if Euridice had followed Orpheus and he had never turned round. The couple began to walk but Orpheus, worried for his wife, did not comply with his duty. So he lost Euridice for ever.
Desperate, he found his inner peace when he stopped to worship Dyonisus and became devout of Apollo.
Several etymologies for the name Orpheus have been proposed. A probable suggestion is that it is derived from a hypothetical proto indo-european verb *orbha-, "to be deprived", from *orbh-, "to put asunder, separate". Cognates would include Greek orphe, "darkness", and Greek orphanos, "fatherless, orphan", from which comes English "orphan" by way of Latin. (cf. Wikipedia)
It is interesting to notice that Darkness is related to Separation.
Euridice means “wide justice”, stemmed from (eurys) “wide” and (dike) “justice”. The Masonic symbol of Justice is the Plumb, which ties up each aspect of the Manifestation to the Supreme Being.
Orpheus, i e. humankind, has lost the Justice – or the thread – and is therefore unable to join the Supreme Being, thus living in darkness. Nevertheless men can restore the loss if they get rid of their passions (Dyonisus) and turn to the One (Apollo: a-pollòn, “without much”, thus Oneness). Apollo was the god of the harmonious beauty.
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Post by therondunn on May 20, 2007 11:18:38 GMT
So, this started off with a comment that Karen made about seeking a path between good and bad, veering neither to the left nor the right.
I asked why we should seek a middle path between good and bad and not seek the good to the exclusion of the bad. We have talked about darkness and light, we have talked about energies, we have talked about moral relativity, of the nature of good and bad, but I haven't seen Karen help me with an understanding of WHY one would seek a middle path between the two instead of cleaving to path on the side of good.
Karen, would you PLEASE expand upon why you think we should seek a middle path between the two?
Thanks.
Stewart: I understand about moral realtivity, but in the case offered, Karen opined that we should seek a path between the two "poles" of good and bad. This presupposes that it is the internal definition of good and bad we are, individually dealing with, not the external.
Freemasonry teaches us to do good, to be good men. Karen opined that we should seek a path between the two poles. I am simply asking for her to expand on that a bit so I can understand where she is coming from, how she arrived at that, so I can, perhaps, better understand freemasonry.
That is the point of discussion, yes? To learn from each other? Even if we don't change our opinions, in the process, we learn more about ourselves.
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Post by todddrew on May 20, 2007 15:51:28 GMT
Out beyond wrong doing and right doing there is a field, I will meet you there. -Rumi
If you hold the string too tight it will break, if you hold it too loose it won't play. -Buddha
namaste' -td
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on May 20, 2007 18:41:14 GMT
Karen, would you PLEASE expand upon why you think we should seek a middle path between the two? First of all . . . Hi Todddrew! Greetings and welcome to Masonc Forum of Light. Excellent first post, especially the second observation, that of Siddhartha. It's at the heart of what I've been trying to say in this thread, over and over and over but clearly, I've failed to explain sufficiently. For truly, we should seek the middle way not as a compromise but because the ultimate truth transcends good and evil. Obviously, it takes a master to explain such things. Bro. Theron, I have explained it as best *I* can. To the point I'm sure I am trying the patience of the other brethren here. I'm sad, genuinely so, that my poor communication skills have not made it clear to you. I can do no better than I have. Joseph Campbell observed that there comes a point in the hero's life where he must go on alone. If you truly want to understand *why* one should see the middle way, I think it's time you seek a better teacher than me.
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