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Post by whistler on Nov 18, 2004 8:21:48 GMT
I discovered remarks by Dr Chetwode Crawley; he is refering to the lodge Elizabeth St. Ledger was initiated he says that the lodge must have worked at least 2 Degrees. this last deduction will require a good deal of explaining away on the part of those brethren who hold that because Scottish operative Lodges suffered the ritual into the merest mode of recognition, the early English speculative Lodges cannot have worked more than one degree. My Questions what is meant by " because Scottish operative Lodges suffered the ritual into the merest mode of recognition, the early English speculative Lodges cannot have worked more than one degree." ANy clues
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Post by Proton on Jan 4, 2005 1:12:11 GMT
Whistler, what a question you have asked! Lets look at it like this, in simple terms; I have broken your question down into a number of component topics and will address each one in order. This will provide you with the pieces of the jigsaw! Assemble them how you wish! Dr Chetwode Crawley (1844-1916) was one of the learned members of QC lodge, which is the UGLE Premier Lodge of Research. He was also involved in Irish Masonry as he was the Grand Secretary of the Grand Lodge of Instruction. A body peculiar to the IC. In the latter years of his life he was Grand Treasurer of the IC and was honoured with Grand Rank in a number of other Constitutions. Lastly he was also a member of the University Senate in Dublin, and of a number of learned societies. Elizabeth St Leger, as I understand, was initiated into a lodge because she was caught spying on the lodge proceedings. The Lodge was meeting at the home of one of the members whom Elizabeth was staying with. So in order to get around the problem, the brethren made her a member of the Lodge! Lodges at that time in the early 1700’s worked a two-degree system, that of EA and FC only. The latter was eligible to become the Master of a Lodge, or even a Grand Officer! These workings may have been part of operative lodge working. These terms, I would add are mentioned in Andersons’ Constitutions of 1723 and Article XIII says that “Apprentices must be Admitted Masters and Fellow Crafts only here [in the Grand Lodge] except by dispensation.” Such phraseology raises the question as to whether or not Masters and Fellow Crafts are intended here as separate degrees. This has been a big headache to Masonic scholars over the years. An interpretation of this is that it is one and the same thing i.e. they were the same grade! One can interpret it as one wishes. There is evidence to infer that in the early 1700’s, the small numbers of speculative lodges were admitting masons and making them Master Masons in three separate stages. Hence the existence of Masters Lodges, which were there for working the third degree, whilst ordinary lodges through their ignorance, still worked the two-degree system. Such was the situation and by 1730 a number of lodges were working the third degree, including the Hiramic legend, and it is not known when this made its appearance into freemasonry. I would add that there exists Masters lodges today which membership is restricted to PMs. Their work consists of lectures and demonstrations on subjects of a masonic nature. It is a confusing question that you have posed, where did you get the infornation from? Which book were you reading? I am of the opinion that Dr CC is speculating in this respect. But why he is doing this you may well ask? Proton
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Post by mrmason on Jan 4, 2005 9:41:12 GMT
Just to complicate things further In Scotland it was known for Lodges and Incorporations( Guilds in England) to work together. so those who were members of a particular Incorporation were also members of the same Lodge. Therefore the following is what usualy took place. In the first year the person was made an Apprentice within the Incorporation, 3 years later he was "Entered" as an Apprentice on the books of the Lodge. 4 years later he would have been promoted to Journeyman/Servent in the Incorporation and 2 years later made a Fellow Craft/Master of the Lodge. One year later he would hve been promoted to Burgess and Master of the Incorporation. This would take a total of approx 11 years provided that he came up to scratch. In some records the timings were slightly different and in a few cases the mason became a Burgess/Master before a Fellow/Master of the Craft.
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Post by whistler on Jan 7, 2005 8:30:28 GMT
Proton and Mr Mason, Thank you for your replies, I do appreciate them, Please don't think I have forgotten them - This is the silly season down here - Should be summer Holiday time though the weather is a disaster. My Problem Proton is that this Forum keeps the mind searching so much I can't find the where I found the Article.
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