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Post by whistler on Oct 18, 2007 3:33:10 GMT
if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it’s probably a duck, and these women are acting as Masons in all senses except that they are women, that we might, oh, I don’t know, actually treat them as if they were… Masons?
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 18, 2007 6:47:27 GMT
If you ever find the time to go read the blog you will find that others do not accept your view on ducks.
* Thank you Bro Theron, a very fair and honest article.
* Theron, you're a Beacon -- lead the way, Bro:.
* Theron, this is refreshing and I will admit..... unexpected, at least from my understanding of your position on this issue. It is also very encouraging when someone like you writes in this manner.
* What an unexpected and delightful read. Kudos! With the exception of qualifying (for clarity sake) your use of the word "regularity" as that being associated with UGLE recognized organizations, juxtaposition to the regularity associated with Co-craft and Female-craft Masonry, your blog entry pegs the meter on the 1-10 meter for thought provoking entries to ponder.
* I know that you have struggled with this subject for some considerable time, so I believe your sentiments to be honest, enlightened and from the heart!
* I know you did not come to this conclusion easily or "light"ly (sorry for the pun)! That makes it all the more remarkable and significant, you ol' dog!
50% Malecraft and 50% Co Masonry
But Hey! dont let facts get in the way of your predudices.
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 18, 2007 8:46:27 GMT
" Are There Women Masons???"
Is the Pope a Catholic?
Women Only = HFAF and OWF (and possibly others I have not heard about)
Co-Masonic = LDH , Eastern Order, and various other bodies.
There are Women Masons, that some Male Only GLs and some Brethren thereof don't Recognise them as Freemasons is their problem not that of the Women Masons or Co-Masons.
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Post by leonardo on Oct 18, 2007 12:25:04 GMT
It is a great article. And now that I know a little more about the author I appreciate more how difficult it must have been to finally arrive at this reevaluation of his previous position. TD should be seriously congratulated for his efforts in not only highlight the issue but for bringing his new understanding to a much wider audience.
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Post by gipsyrose on Oct 18, 2007 14:14:15 GMT
Dear Brother Theron That is a beautiful piece to read. From someone who is proud to be your sister.
gipsyrose
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Post by leonardo on Oct 18, 2007 16:51:51 GMT
ah, see, its easier for me to consider you a sister than a brother... call me old fashioned, but I feel silly calling a woman "Brother". Thank you. I am led to believe that in some Co-Masonic lodges women are indeed referred to as "Sisters."
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Post by corab on Oct 18, 2007 20:10:26 GMT
I am led to believe that in some Co-Masonic lodges women are indeed referred to as "Sisters." It's very much a continental practice, inspired by our French roots. Insofar as I'm aware, all but one lodge in the British Federation maintain the principle that a mason is a Brother, and that gender does not affect that status, nor the form of address attached to it. S&F, Cora
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 18, 2007 20:30:01 GMT
Thank you, but there are still some brothers out there who think I am not being fully honest in my post. One of them has said so on this forum, I understand. Dear Bro. Theron,I'm not sure if I am the brother to whom you refer. I had responded to such comments as: By the landmarks we agree upon, women aren't masons, and neither are atheists. If a woman wants to be a member of an obedicence that utilizes masonic ritual and teachings, and of course, makes changes to the ritual to suit women, then it is no longer freemasonry. Times change and so have you. Congratulations. Since posting your revised opinion, a brother has suggested here that it demonstrates opinions are changing regarding women within mainstream Freemasonry and that there is therefore no need to "force" this long overdue issue. My response to him, bearing-in-mind it was he who brought your opinion into the exchange, was in respect to the limited nature of your change of opinion (feeling it demonstrated little more than a shift from denial to acknowledgment of a self-evident fact): I did NOT question your honesty. Indeed, your recent views on the sexuality of candidates for initiation or office having no relevance in Freemasonry, including the mainstream, has given me new hope. I suspect you may already be pondering whether or not their sex has or ought to have any such relevance.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 19, 2007 7:51:03 GMT
Bro. Theron,
Thank you for clarifying your position.
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Post by leonardo on Oct 19, 2007 8:08:32 GMT
Theron, just so you know, Whistler is male.
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Post by leonardo on Oct 19, 2007 8:17:55 GMT
Please forgive me, it just when you said "she" referring to someone who you feel doesn't see where you're coming from I thought you were on about Whistler. I was confused about him before!
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Post by middlepillar on Oct 19, 2007 8:27:52 GMT
Philip; I do not read the rest of this forum. I have been made painfully aware that I am not welcome by a many of the members here since I do not toe the PC line, a few of them are mods. And no, you are not the brother who I mentioned. She knows who she is. I mostly came here to post links to my blog, not to engage, and you will note, I ONLY post on this one sub-sub forum. Theron This is outrageous, and I am amazed at your arrogance. If you do not read the rest of this Forum and you only post to this one Forum. Why did you have the audacity to vote on whether we should keep the Co-Masonry section? Why do you continually say you are not welcome here? We let you post your Links, some engage in discussion, you even ask for comment on your Blogs! Can you never let go? You must be in a very strange place brother, a place where only you are important and nothing else matters. Personally I would like to know how you come up with these claims at the same time as having the arrogance to use this Forum for your own ends?
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 19, 2007 10:23:50 GMT
Bro Theron, you and I have crossed swords in the past over the issue of Women Freemasons and Co-Masonry but both of us I feel have moved on this matter to some extent. In my own case I have actually become a Co-Mason and have found that Co-Masonry is complete in itself as a self-governing part of the Greater Masonic Family. It is not necessary for us to be "Recognised" by UGLE etc. Intervisitation would be nice but I can see that it would engender problems.
There are Three types of Freemasonry as you say. Men-Only, Women-Only and Co-Masonry. All have a right to exist.
I for one do not wish to force Male Only Lodges to take Women as Members any more than Female Only Lodges such as those of HFAF or OWF to be made to admit Men. Some single Gender Masonic Bodies such as GOdF and Grand Lodge of France do allow Women Masons to attend their Meetings although they do not Initiate them. and I applaud that but do not see UGLE or some of the US Malecraft Lodges doing so. I would however query that 90% of Malecraft Masons would leave were one of their GLs to charter a Mixed or Female Lodge. there would be an exodus to be sure but I would say of a lesser percentage than that.
Bro Theron, if you are unhappy on MFOL then you must do as you feel best. I left for a while when unhappy at the way some matters had developed and at the actions of one Moderator. I did come back after a few months and whilst that Mod is still here I keep out of her way and trust she will do the same with me unless I need to be Moderated. Our relationship is Icy Cold but polite and that suits me I can work with that.
I feel you have added to this Forum with your Blogs. I don't agree with some of what you say, but it is stimulating "Food for Thought"
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Post by middlepillar on Oct 19, 2007 16:02:58 GMT
Theron;
I did not comment on whether or not you should keep or not keep the forum. Its a matter on which, as you note, I do not participate. Where did you see me comment on the subject?
I did not say you commented I said you voted, why would someone who does not read any other part of the Forum need to vote on something he doesnt read anyway?
As for me being important... hardly. I have been trashed here by several members, as I have noted to you before, and as has been noted by Bill and Gio. In fact, Gio was so upset at the treatment I received, he quit this forum, so its not like an imaginary occurrence.
I had been warned by Bill at least 6 weeks before Gio left he was unhaoppy with the Forum, I have no doubt the situation with you was the last straw, however not the only reason, I know Gio has a lot of trouble with women in masonry and the male only Freemasons potential inability to control his libido, he constantly talks about it everywhere. You feel you had been trashed, the mods didnt see it all your way, why cant you move on from this? We have, hence your Blog space.
As for arrogance, well, I haven't expressed any arrogance I can see. I have offered a link to my blog, for those interested in it, period. I have offered no other commentary but that which appears on my blog.
The arrogance is for anyone to see, a man who can hand out a ticking off to his hosts reminding them at how bad he was treated yet still happily use thier hospitallity is pretty arrogant in my book
Recently, some brothers have asked questions, which I have answered.
How do I justify using the forum for my own ends? Brother, we ALL do this, how can you be surprised? Have I made ANY effort to engage on any other forum? Have I posted anything more than links to my blog? Heck, this sub sub forum was created specifically so I could post those links. If you think that my posting links to my blog, where I solicit comments on those blog entries is arrogant, unnecessary, or unmasonic, let the board delete my login and this sub forum.
I have absloutely no problem with any of the above, I do have a problem with someone insisting they do not read any other parts of the Forum and then voting on the future of a Board he insists he is not interested in!
I have been made unwelcome on the main board. YOU are one of the few that does not seem to see the maltreatment I received, nor the reason for my withdrawal from the overall forum. YOU seem to be one of the few that are angry at me all the time no matter what I post. But, you are entitled to your opinion.
You may find this hard to appreciate though you should not. My feelings are irrelevant I have always tried to do the best job I can when it comes to moderating, most of your posts are fine and I read them like all others, as a moderator if I see something that I believe is going to be a problem or is wrong I like all the mods act. If you think I have a personal problem with you fine, I think I have proved by Privately writing to you on occasions when I have disagreed with you, I dont. I have also complimented you on several occasions, so It goes without saying I disagree with you.
If YOU don't want me to post only on this sub sub forum, take a vote of the mods, and let me know. I will drop even this sub sub forum if no one here wants to see even links to my opinions.
I have always maintained that your writings and your opinions were very 'American' (And I do not mean this ia an attack on all Americans) and would be bound to cause misunderstandings on this Forum, nothing has happened to make me change my mind, however that is my opinion and I do not force it down anyone elses throat. Your membership status is down to you, my personal thoughts do not come in to it, I have said my piece and the mods know how I feel. I have always found it easier to read your posts on other Forums like LRUS
as for being the only important person... talk about arrogance... ON YOUR PART. I never claimed to be the one and only. In fact, I have deliberately withdrawn from the overall forum and not left posts, except for posting links without other comment.
Tit for tat is not my way, I will only say you may leave a link without comment, but you are happy to respond to a comment, as this is the case I do not understand why you have to keep saying you are not welcome on the other Forums, it is about time you moved on. As we have.
Where does this irrational anger come from? Touche`
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Post by middlepillar on Oct 19, 2007 17:12:09 GMT
Theron
I took the time to break down and answer your posts. And you answer with a tirade!
I will say no more because you obviously see everything I say as a personal attack, I cannot believe your last post!
You obviously have not understood anything I said or wanted to, so I will not try anymore, please refer to my post regarding your position here, I do not want to repeat myself!
This is obviously becoming an argument and no longer a discussion, this is as much my fault as anyone elses. For that I apolgise to the members (including you Theron) there is no point in me adding anything else.
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 19, 2007 17:32:17 GMT
PHEW! Working as I do for an American Company I do come across the cultural differences in approach between these two great English Speaking Nations. These are NOT Criticisms but Observations and I hope that Bro Theron will accept them as such. I have found Americans to be a lot more direct and "in your face" than their UK and European counterparts. They tend to dislike the use of passive voice in communications and sometimes will send e-mails etc which we Brits find aggressive when they had no such intent. For their part they criticise us for "waffle" and "beating around the bush" when we don't state directly what we mean. Another difference I have found is that Many Americans see things in black and white ( no pun on racial matters intended) whereas Brits and Europeans will see shades of grey, exceptions, caveats, exemptions etc. This would seem to extend to US Mainstream Freemasonry from what I have read of it on this and other Fora over the years. In Britain we do not have such matters as laying charges against a Brother for "Unmasonic Conduct", or holding a "Masonic Trial" we deal with such matters in a more discrete manner as is our way. I would also imagine that any Grand Lodge in the UK that banned a Brother for being involved with the "Liquor Trade" would soon lose a huge number of its members and be made Bankrupt, we Brits simply would not stand for such a draconian rule. Yet in the Freemasonry of the USA such "Jurisprudence" is taken as a given and such a prohibitionist stance would be obeyed. I cite these differences not as a criticism of US Freemasonry but to illustrate how it differs from what we are used to and accept here in the UK. So as regards Bro Theron. Once he and I were daggers drawn on the subject of Women Masons and Co-Masons, and that was when I was still an UGLE Mason too! Theron has come a long way since those days on this issue and as mentioned elsewhere so have I. For what it is worth I too have had spats with various people here. Believe it or not Leo and I did not get on at all well to begin with when he first posted here and "words were exchanged", now I will be going to his Initiation in Ulster in a few weeks time! People get to know each other and the rough edges wear off. For example I am a lot more "polarised" and take a more robust line than Bro Karen, yet we do not dislike each other over this. I would personally be sorry if Bro Theron quit this Forum but would respect his wish to do so, as I myself did a few months ago. Maybe he takes a "time out" and then should he feel so inclined, come back. Speaking on a purely personal basis I respect both Bro Chris, whom I have met and Bro Theron whom I have not and can see both of their points of view. Maybe they are like the poem of the " Six Men of Industan" ============================================= It was six men of Industan to learning much inclined, Who went to see the elephant, though all of them were blind, That each by observation might satisfy his mind. The first approached the elephant and happening to fall against his broad and sturdy side at once began to bawl, God bless me, the elephant is very like a wall. The second, feeling of the tusk cried, Ho! What have we here, so very round and smooth and sharp? To me it's mighty clear This wonder of an elephant is very like a spear. The third approached the animal and happening to take the squirming trunk within his hands, thus boldly up and spake, I see, quoth he, the elephant is very like a snake. The fourth reached out an eager hand, felt about the knee. What most this wondrous beast is like is mighty plain, quoth he. 'Tis clear enough the elephant is very like a tree. The fifth who chanced to touch the ear said even the blindest man Can tell what this resembles most. Deny the fact, who can, This marvel of an elephant is very like a fan. The sixth no sooner had begun about the beast to grope than seizing on the swinging tail that fell within his scope I see, quoth he, the elephant is very like a rope. And so these men of Industan disputed loud and long, Each in his own opinion exceeding stiff and strong. Though each was partly in the right and all were in the wrong. ============================================== Strange though it may seem coming from me, Peace Brothers!Peace!
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 19, 2007 20:56:01 GMT
I am interested in opinions about the subject matter, I am NOT interested in personal analysis... its not relevant. PERSONAL anything is not relevant to discussions about opinions. Either you agree, or disagree, and if you disagree, please demonstrate why and how your opinion was arrived at... the whole POINT of these discussions is to share opinions, facts and how we arrived at them. Bro. Theron,While we disagree on some issues, on this we are agreed. Appropriate Masonic debate is about facts and logic. Groundless, pseudo-psychological speculation as to a Brother's morals, motives or intentions are hurtful and constitute personal abuse, as do unfounded, conspiracy theory type comments about a Brother's supposed but unspecified, underlying 'agenda.' However, I find broad, general complaints of personal abuse to be problematic and find references to particular instances of such comments to be helpful in determining if such complaints are justified. Perhaps you might be more specific, as you have done previously.
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 20, 2007 8:07:04 GMT
Oh well, goodbye and good luck then, Bro Theron. I will read you on other Fora no doubt. Fraternal Best Wishes.
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