|
|
Post by elshamah on Jun 5, 2008 16:40:17 GMT
Hi Angelo, Wow, this thread is attracting many responses -- so many that you've problably overlooked mine:- Hi Angelo, Thanks -- and right glad am I to see that. Because you know what? There are many things we do not see -- and ofthen when we say we *cannot* see something, the unseen truth of it is that we *will not* see something. We have a choice in these matters. We can choose to see the picture we have painted for ourselves, or we can choose to open our eyes and see the truth. I think Paul would agree. Thankfully, we don't have to wait until God converts us -- we know it exists; we can willingly join it. Problem is the truth can be very painful, and it is much easier to look at an imaginary picture and tell ourselves it is real, than to turn around and look into the mirror of truth. There are people here who want to help you. Surely you understand that desire -- after all you are here to testify your faith and show us what you see as the error of our ways, and I don't mean that sarcastically. Whilst I do not believe anyone here would question your right to experience your faith the way you choose to, the same does not necessarily hold for the way in which you communicate your beliefs. Your testifying could be much more effective if you chose a less confrontational manner. I would be very interested to hear your thoughts. sorry, but in fact, i have no time to respond to all posts adequately |
|
|
|
Post by maximus on Jun 5, 2008 16:48:26 GMT
I don't believe my flesh is sinful, nor my nature. This "original sin" nonsense was added on to keep the clergy in power and the churchgoers feeling guilty. It is a control mechanism. if not, then the bible is nonsense, and Jesus came to earth to die for nothing as well. Anyway. Feel free to believe the way you think is o.k. The Bible is an interesting book, and there is much wisdom therein. I like the KJV for its archaic and poetic language. |
|
|
|
Post by elshamah on Jun 5, 2008 16:51:19 GMT
No. (Clear enough for you?) This, however, is a bit of a logical play. The next question could be "Aha! So what IS the name of the God of freemasons?" The real answer is that there IS NO GOD of the Freemasons. You bring your own faith to the table, so to speak. What you are also seeing is the very reason that not only is Freemasonry not a religion, but why we do NOT allow religious discussion in our lodges. In the same thread I have been offended at the condescension, rudeness, and outright misinformation provided by a person sharing my Christian faith AND offended at the remarks made against my faith by my Brother Masons. While I have no ability but my request, I would ask that if you have specific questions (which it seems you do not as you continue to ask the same questions again and again after receiving very direct answers) then ask them and take the answers to heart. And above all, PLEASE stop bearing false witness. It reflects poorly on both you and our shared faith. Brethren, I must say that I am surprised to see my faith compared to the Easte Bunny and ridiculed. If you do not share my faith, I would expect you to at least respect it enough to not mock it in an open forum. I would certainly extend to you the same courtesy. elshamah, If this isn't proof to you that Masonry isn't a religion, I don't know what else could be. Even the Masons on this very thread do not seem to agree on anything "religious" or theological. ok, i will make you a specific question : does freemasonry teach a plan of salvation which does not require faith in Jesus Christ ? |
|
|
|
Post by marcopolo on Jun 5, 2008 17:01:49 GMT
No.
Salvation is a religious proposition. My faith teaches me that my salvation comes from my faith in Christ.
Masonry is completely silent on this issue as it is a religious concept.
Next question?
|
|
|
|
Post by corab on Jun 5, 2008 17:02:11 GMT
sorry, but in fact, i have no time to respond to all posts adequately But of course you do. It's a simple matter of prioritising, of chosing what to respond to and in how much detail. You choose conflict, confrontation. You choose to spend time searching unreliable sources and quoting from them. You choose to spend time citing scripture to us. You say you are here to testify your faith -- I doubt that. All you have shown us so far is a desire to off-load your internal conflict onto some scapegoat under the guise of testifying your faith. You're not testifying your faith -- you're testifying your fear, your anger, your inability to face up to the truth you know to be within you. You don't have to live your life like this. You choose to. |
|
|
|
Post by maximus on Jun 5, 2008 17:03:07 GMT
ok, i will make you a specific question : does freemasonry teach a plan of salvation which does not require faith in Jesus Christ ? I can answer that: Freemasonry is not a path to salvation, nor makes any such claim. So, no. |
|
|
|
Post by droche on Jun 5, 2008 17:04:22 GMT
Freemasonry does not teach a plan of salvation. The rest of your question is moot since the first part of it is nonexistent. Your questions are just a retread of the tired old anti-masonic rants that I have been hearing for years. Is Freemasonry a religion- No. Do Freemasons worship a God named Jabulon- No. Does Freemasonry offer a plan of salvation- No. I've heard them all before. (Yawn)
|
|
|
|
Post by marcopolo on Jun 5, 2008 17:14:30 GMT
elshamah,
I've read every link you've posted, including the one's that are proven and admitted (by their very authors) to be hoaxes.
Have you read the single paper I asked you to read where I address these very questions?
Again, it's in the Papers and Articles Section on this board, and is entitled "My personal response"
It involved my several months of research as an Evangelical Christian who became a Master Mason. I think it would certainly save you some time to see someone of your faith who actually went through the process rather than standing on the "outside" and casting accusations that you have no knowledge of whatsoever.
Just a thought.
|
|
|
|
Post by marcopolo on Jun 5, 2008 17:29:12 GMT
I understand your concern. If I can honestly and forthrightly answer his questions and he still doesn't believe me, there's not much I can do. At this point, I fear he feels I fall into one of two camps:
1. I am a liar.
2. I am not truly "saved".
It's a horrible situation called cognitive dissonance. If you have a dearly held belief, or are invested in a mindset, you will go to any lengths to hold it.. even when confronted with facts that you are wrong.
This is the same reason people will see a loved one commit a crime and honestly believe that it did not happen.
And, I fear, it's the same reason that elshamah will receive honest answers to every question he asks and still respond with "hmmm I don't know."
I do know. I'm on the "inside" and I'm telling you it's factual. Of course YOU don't know. What you are saying "I don't know" to is "I don't know if this fact matches my pre-held prejudice".
Very basic. Very predictable, but very sad to see.
|
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Jun 5, 2008 17:32:23 GMT
There are a number of sites that will argue that it does.
They will quote the third degree ritual.
But to a Freemason, it is the symbolism that is important, unless you can understand the reaction to the symbolism you will never start to understand the Masonic way of thinking.
For example, we look at a cross and into the brain floods all the concepts of Jesus and all the stories we have been taught all our lives, even the Films of the Crucifixion will be in there somewhere. As the man said a picture is worth a thousand words.
Does the symbol take you away from your Faith? no!
As you said yourself elshamah, it is what is in the heart that counts.
|
|
|
|
Post by alchymicalmason on Jun 5, 2008 17:37:36 GMT
elshama/Angelo, Let me state catagorically and unequivocally the following: Albert Pike was not the head of Freemasonry. No one speaks for Freemasonry as a whole, each Grand Lodge is an autonimous entity. Morals and Dogma is an exploration in comparative religion and mythology, including Christian mythology. Morals and Dogma is not now, nor has it ever been, any sort of "handbook" of Freemasonry. It was an official publication of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction, USA. It was not then, nor is it now, required reading for members of the AASR. Freemasonry is not a religion, nor a replacement for religion. It requires that a belief in a Supeme being already exists (except for the GLdF). Mankind can improve themselves without recourse to religion. It is called Philosophy, particularly as practiced by the greeks, and is the cornerstone of western Civilisation. As I pointed out before, and you coose not to adress, the Theocracy that was imposed on the people of Europe by the Church led to the devolution of the West from a civilised society under the rule of law, in the time of Rome, to a pestlistic backwater of darkness during the Middle Ages. It was due to the efforts of Freemasons that mankind was brought out of this era into a more enlightened age, based on science and the philosophy of Aristotle as the underpinnings of a new age of thought. The Rights of Man, The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution of the United States, etc., were all founded on freemasonic principles of Liberty, Equality, and Faternity. Seperation of Church and State was essential to break the chains of ignorance that had plagued mankind for too long. The very right of Freedom of Religion is a Masonic principle, which is embodied in the very structure of the Lodge. So, you see my friend, to disparage Freemasonry as a Satanic institution is to imply that Western Civilisation itself is inherently Satanic, which puts one on par with the little man in charge of Iran, who puts forth the same sentiments. it does not import, what men made through the bible, since many bad things were made in the past in the name of God. It imports what God says through his word, the bible. 1:28 God blessed56 them and said57 to them, “Be fruitful and multiply! Fill the earth and subdue it!58 Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that moves on the ground.”59 This incorporates clearly advance in sciene, exploration and use of all resources for our needs. God is FOR progress, not against. i remain with my assertion. There is absolutely no way, men to transform his NATURE, he can try whatever he wants. no philosophy, no religion, anything. Only one is able to do it : God himself. He can transform man, and give his holy spirit, so that someone, that is born again in Christ, is able to live in the spirit, not in flesh, slaved through his own nature. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual – but I am unspiritual, sold into slavery to sin.21 7:15 For I don’t understand what I am doing. For I do not do what I want – instead, I do what I hate.22 7:16 But if I do what I don’t want, I agree that the law is good.23 7:17 But now it is no longer me doing it, but sin that lives in me. 7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I want to do the good, but I cannot do it.24 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but I do the very evil I do not want! 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer me doing it but sin that lives in me.7:21 So, I find the law that when I want to do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God in my inner being. 7:23 But I see a different law in my members waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that is in my members. 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 7:25 Thanks be25 to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then,26 I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but27 with my flesh I serve28 the law of sin.8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.1 8:2 For the law of the life-giving Spirit2 in Christ Jesus has set you3 free from the law of sin and death. 8:3 For God achieved what the law could not do because4 it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 8:4 so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.elshamah, basically all you have done with this thread that you have created, is quote the Bible and give well known anti-Masonic websites. I pity you because it is painfully obvious that you have no original thoughts. You quote from an allegorical book that many of us don't even consider valid and every argument that you present is from some other source. I can't speak for the others but it is people like you that reinforce that fact that I made the right decision to get as far away from organized religion as possible! I have to deal with radical, self-righteous people every day because I live in the Bible Belt of the USA. I pity them too, because they are being mind-controlled as you are. They proudly quote their memorized verses and when I ask them what they mean they quote other verses or they quote their pastor, etc. It is all very sad. I chose to become a Freemason because I enjoy using my mind by learning and growing philosophically, spiritually, and emotionally. I enjoy the free flow of ideas and exploring other cultures and philosophies without the restraints of dogmatic religion. If that makes you think that I worship Satan, so be it! It is none of my business what you think of me! That is pretty much the attitude I have taken with my Bible believing friends and neighbors. If they don't like what we are doing, that is just fine! You can go about your business and we can go about ours! Why you are here posting your second hand drivel is beyond me. Is this feeding some sort of sick perversion you have? does it make you feel superior to us? You don't see us going to the Christian forums and posting anti-Christian stuff, do you? No. And you won't because we respect your right to believe as you wish. And WE DON'T CARE!  Peace be with you and all the kindly, non-judgmental Christians of the world! |
|
|
|
Post by alchymicalmason on Jun 5, 2008 17:42:31 GMT
There are a number of sites that will argue that it does. They will quote the third degree ritual. But to a Freemason, it is the symbolism that is important, unless you can understand the reaction to the symbolism you will never start to understand the Masonic way of thinking. For example, we look at a cross and into the brain floods all the concepts of Jesus and all the stories we have been taught all our lives, even the Films of the Crucifixion will be in there somewhere. As the man said a picture is worth a thousand words. Does the symbol take you away from your Faith? no! As you said yourself elshamah, it is what is in the heart that counts. Good point! In fact, I believe that the Bible has a lot of valid allegorical symbolism that should not be taken literally. There are many passages that were written for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear! The esoteric messages are just as important is the exoteric! |
|
|
|
Post by leonardo on Jun 5, 2008 19:55:00 GMT
This thread has demonstrated for this individual (me!) why we should NOT engage in conversation with those fundamentalists whose minds are (unfortunately) closed to reasonable, rational debate.
|
|
|
|
Post by maximus on Jun 5, 2008 20:00:59 GMT
This thread has demonstrated for this individual (me!) why we should NOT engage in conversation with those fundamentalists whose minds are (unfortunately) closed to reasonable, rational debate. It's fun for a while, but after a few dozen Bible verses it gets old. And we never did find out if God has a bellybutton.  |
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Jun 5, 2008 20:22:46 GMT
This thread has demonstrated for this individual (me!) why we should NOT engage in conversation with those fundamentalists whose minds are (unfortunately) closed to reasonable, rational debate. I am sorry but that is not the case, as I have found on a number of occasions. I can remember very clearly on 'E5' when a Lady arrived complaining that her new boyfriend who was a Freemason had been giving her problems and it was all down to Freemasonry. The silly people at E5 gave her a real bad time because she was living with a man and not married. I spoke / wrote to her as I usually try to do with honesty and being clear about Freemasonry. After about 4 or 5 days I received an email from this Lady thanking me for my understanding and pointing out that my advice, to talk freely to her partner had been carried out, they had agreed to part, but still keep in touch because the children had become fond of him. But she said I wanted to thank you for showing me that it had nothing to do with Freemasonry, he just did not love me. That, she said, she could deal with. However she was not impressed with the E5 moderators, as she went there for help and all she got was told off. She got more help from a sad old Mason. Billy no fundy mates. |
|
|
|
Post by corab on Jun 5, 2008 20:43:18 GMT
This thread has demonstrated for this individual (me!) why we should NOT engage in conversation with those fundamentalists whose minds are (unfortunately) closed to reasonable, rational debate. I don't know about that, Bro:. Patrick. I've actually found this process very enlightening, albeit it not for the reasons I expect Angelo would hope for. The way in which we communicate reveals much about what really matters to us; about what really drives us. Yep, this is a most interesting thread. |
|
|
|
Post by lauderdale on Jun 5, 2008 21:20:09 GMT
I'm with Bro Leo on this. I would not let this person on The Chequered Pavement. (My Forum)
I consider myself to be a Christian but of a quite different type to the Fundis. For a start I do NOT hold the Bible to be literally true but like all VSLs to no doubt have a degree of Divine Inspiration but mostly to be allegorical. Somehow I think the Jesus Christ I consider to be my Saviour and Guide to be a lot different to the one they follow.
|
|
|
|
Post by leonardo on Jun 5, 2008 21:42:02 GMT
Is freemasonry a religion? No And as for Albert Pike, he simply wrote his opinion, no man, or woman, ever has nor ever will speak for freemasonry as a whole Is this true? Not even Bill? |
|
|
|
Post by leonardo on Jun 5, 2008 21:47:05 GMT
This thread has demonstrated for this individual (me!) why we should NOT engage in conversation with those fundamentalists whose minds are (unfortunately) closed to reasonable, rational debate. I don't know about that, Bro:. Patrick. I've actually found this process very enlightening, albeit it not for the reasons I expect Angelo would hope for. The way in which we communicate reveals much about what really matters to us; about what really drives us. Yep, this is a most interesting thread. Then we have both learned something  Proverbs 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? |
|
|
|
Post by leonardo on Jun 5, 2008 22:10:54 GMT
I'm with Bro Leo on this. I would not let this person on The Chequered Pavement. (My Forum) I consider myself to be a Christian but of a quite different type to the Fundis. For a start I do NOT hold the Bible to be literally true but like all VSLs to no doubt have a degree of Divine Inspiration but mostly to be allegorical. Somehow I think the Jesus Christ I consider to be my Saviour and Guide to be a lot different to the one they follow. This for me is one of the wonderful thing about Freemasonry: we have some of the most intelligent, thoughtful and considerate Christians (and members of other faiths) within our community who can follow these different approaches, yet none will denounce another brother for not sharing their particular path. |
|
