i am a born again, evangelical christian

[elshamah]

Jun 6, 2008 18:19:24 GMT marcopolo said:

elshamah,

I will, again, answer your question. I will then thank you for doing the same.

I have chosen a brotherhood with men who are not Christians, that is correct. I'm not sure what is controversial, or the least bit un-christian about that.

freemasons claim, freemasonry is not a religion. However,
someone admitted here, that GADU ( Great Architect of the Universe ) is the name for God, called at the freemason lodges. Correct ?

But Jesus saith , I am the way, the truth, and the Life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me. (Jn.14:6)

so how can you agree to give to God another name, than in the word of God stated ?

In fact, I find it to be much MORE Christ-like to associate with others who do not believe as I do. Mixing light with darkness? You are WAY off base with the use of that scripture. I am certainly not "yoking" myself to my fellow Masons.

i am not offbase. My argument stands, and is compelling. there is no reason to associate with a non-christian organisation, that

1. Do does not give to the God of the bible the honor , he deserves, but to a God with another name.

2. Looks forward to the time when the labor of their ancient brethren shall be symbolized by the erection of a spiritual temple...in which there shall be but one alter and one worship; one common altar of Masonry on which the Veda, Shastra, Sade, Zend-Avesta, Koran and Holy Bible shall lie...and at whose shrine the Hindoo, the Persian, the Assyrian, the Chaldean, the Egyptian, the Chinese, the Mohammedan, the Jew and the Christian may kneel..." ("The Kentucky Monitor." Fellowcraft Degree, p. 95)

however, the bible says :

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God... (II Tim. 3:16)
..if they speak not according to this Word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa. 8:20)

2. claim : "If we with suitable true devotion maintain our Masonic profession, our faith will become a beam of light an bring us to those blessed mansions where we shall be eternally happy with God, the Great Architect of the Universe." (Daniel Sickles, "Ahimon Rezon or Freemason's Guide." p. 79) "

As it is written. There is none righteous no not one: (Rom. 3:10) For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. (Rom. 3:23) For He hath made Him {Jesus} to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. (II Cor. 5:21) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9)

3. The Mason Doctrine teaches that it right to lie, if necessary to protect the secrets of the Lodge, or to protect brother Masons by concealing his wrongdoing. It can even be right to deliberately deceive sincere Masons seeking to learn the lessons and secrets of Masonry.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. (Ex. 20:16) Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. (Lev. 19:11) ...lie not to one another. (Col. 3:9) ...all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death. (Rev 21:8)

4. Why do freemasons have secrets.?And why do you swear to hold these secrets ?

I {Jesus} spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple...and in secret have I said nothing. (Jn. 18:20) Provide things honest in the sight of all men. (Rom. 12:17) Thou shalt not kill (murder). (Ex. 20:13) But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. (Jas. 5:12)

Jesus used the example of the Good Samaritan. Surely you understand that a Samaritan was the LAST person the average Jew wanted to deal with. Talk about darkness and light, they didn't even want to SPEAK to a Samaritan.

If the objective would not to deal with non-christians, than we would have to leave this world. That is impossible , of course. But freely , to accept to associate to a non-christian organisation is something completely different. Your example does not accurately respond my point.

Are these opportunities in my church? Yes, they are, and I am involved with them. Unfortunately, I have found that more often than not, my evangelical church is much more concerned with meeting the needs of those who attend our church than those who do not. My denomination has been very, very slow to respond to the needs of those suffering from AIDS due to the "homosexual issue". As an example, there is a "soup kitchen" that is run by a non-profit, non-religious organization. They are the most active and I have worked with them. I find no conflict in this as I find no conflict with doing these acts through Masonry.. the organizations are not mutually exclusive.

I do not see any justification in this. You can do all this, without need to associate to freemasonry.

(As a side question, what have you done this week either within your church or outside of it to help the widow, the orphan, or those in jail?)

i bought food and gave to people that where suffering hunger.

As to why you should trust me over those "respected" (respected as in they continue to quote things like the Taxil Hoax to sell books?) over me? I don't expect you to believe me over anyone else. Frankly, you're in no position to make that judgment as you have absolutely no experience whatsoever. I believe you would feel the same way if I began to tell you why Brazil was a horrible place with a crooked government, quoting multiple anti-Brazilian websites. I wouldn't be particularly credible now, would I? Would you take me seriously if I tried to convince you about what a horrible place Brazil was, with you living there and I having never been there?

would you need to use drugs, to know that it is harmful ? of course not. You have access to information of ex drugusers etc. This is enough. Same with me. I do not have do make part of freemasonry, to judge. I have the witness of people that were masons, and other resources. They are trustworthy.

Again, please answer my questions.
At this point I think your statement that you are here to testify to your faith is dubious at best, bordering on dishonesty. You are here to convince Masons that Masonry is Satanic, and you lack any credibility to do so.

feel free to think however you want.

[/quote]
So, Please.. the questions:

1. Are you a Christian?[/quote]

yes, i am a born again, evangelical christian, over 24 years, by now.

2. Do you believe that Christians are to love unconditionally?

yes, shure.

Is it true that he who does not love does not know Christ?

absolutely. If i am here, it is because i LOVE you. I do not hate, you, and anyone else. I am not here to condemn you. I have said that already.

[elshamah]

Jun 6, 2008 21:38:28 GMT marcopolo said:

well, my human nature is sinful as everybodies.

Be careful. This puts you outside the beliefs of evangelical Christianity. While it may just be a poor choice of words on your part, it does make a theological difference.

IF you believe we as humans are sinful by nature, then you must also believe in baptism of infants, since to die in that sinful state would damn them. (Which we as evangelicals do NOT believe).

children cannot be held accountable, since up to a certain age, they do not know, what is right, what is wrong. God does not condemn children to hell.

You do not, however, have the ability or the authority to judge the salvation of others, which you have continued to do,

could you show me exacly where i did so ?

nor have you been authorized to bear false witness in your quest to convince others of their need for salvation. Remember, the gospel is yours to share, but it is not yours. Jesus was never belligerent and never browbeat anyone into salvation.

So don't i. however, i do respond according to what is said. Don't you know how jesus named the leading class of jew religion ?

If you're true interest is to reach others with Jesus message of hope, I would HIGHLY recommend you go on a "red letter" quest. Spend some time reading how Jesus himself engaged those in need, how he treated them. Would he carry a sign that says "God hates fags!" or would you find him in an AIDS hospice comforting those we have rejected? As I once told a friend "I don't know if Jesus would be in the bar.. but I know he would be in the gutter with the drunks on skid row."

thanks for the advice. Each has his way to testify. The internet is a valuable way to do it.

[elshamah]

Jun 7, 2008 0:25:40 GMT @alchymicalmason said:

Jun 6, 2008 15:35:41 GMT elshamah said:

what does Jesus have to do with the Essenes ?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Are you SERIOUS?

yes.

[marcopolo]

Jun 7, 2008 14:25:40 GMT elshamah said:

Jun 6, 2008 18:19:24 GMT marcopolo said:

elshamah,

All the other questions have already been answered, ad nauseam. I will address the new questions.

4. Why do freemasons have secrets.?And why do you swear to hold these secrets ?

If you wouldn't mind, what is your credit card number and PIN?

The ONLY "secrets" we have in Masonry are methods of identifying ourself to other Masons. That's it. And, frankly, you could probably find those out in under and hour from where you sit. (This has already been answered in the very paper I directed you to multiple times. At this point you're research is just plain lazy.)

If the objective would not to deal with non-christians, than we would have to leave this world. That is impossible , of course. But freely , to accept to associate to a non-christian organisation is something completely different. Your example does not accurately respond my point.

My response perfectly addresses your point. The problem is that you are starting from the incorrect premise that Masonry is a religion. You are wrong, and we have told you multiple times why and how this is wrong. I'm not sure how many other times and ways you can ask the same question, and get the same response.

would you need to use drugs, to know that it is harmful ? of course not. You have access to information of ex drugusers etc. This is enough. Same with me. I do not have do make part of freemasonry, to judge. I have the witness of people that were masons, and other resources. They are trustworthy.

That's a very weak analogy. Based on your previous posts, you are better than this. We know, scientifically, the effect that chemicals have on our body. What you are talking about is a set of beliefs or opinions. You are not talking to former drug users, you are talking about people who continue to quote the Taxil Hoax. (Have you even read about/understood this yet?) AND People who continue to quote Pike in order to sell books. If your Christian standard of "trustworthy" is those who intentionally lie (the Taxil Hoax) and deceive (quoting out of context).. then I fear you are more concerned with winning and argument then you are sharing your witness in truth.

1. Are you a Christian?

yes, i am a born again, evangelical christian, over 24 years, by now.


2. Is it true that he who does not love does not know Christ?

absolutely.

Then how do you explain this?

Evangelical Christian Pastor Fred Phelps has protested the funerals of US Military Personnel with members of his church, carrying signs that say:
"God Hates Fags", "Fags Die, God Laughs", and "Thank God for IEDs" (IEDs are the roadside bombs which are being used in Iraq to kill US soldiers).

One of the largest and most influential evangelical Pastors in the world, John Hagee said that Hurricane Katrina was an act of vengeance by God against the people of New Orleans for having a gay pride march the previous week:

"All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that."

Leading Evangelical Pastor Pat Robertson called for a nuclear bomb to be used against the US State Dept HQ where hundreds innocent men and women work every day; ""Maybe we need a very small nuke thrown off on Foggy Bottom to shake things up"

Robertson also called for the assassination of a political rival.
"

"You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war ... We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability. We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with."

Evangelical Pastor Dr. Wesley Swift stated that salvation is for the white race alone:

"WE BELIEVE the White, Anglo-Saxon, Germanic and kindred people to be God's true, literal Children of Israel. Only this race fulfills every detail of Biblical Prophecy and World History concerning Israel and continues in these latter days to be heirs and possessors of the Covenants, Prophecies, Promises and Blessings YHVH God made to Israel. This chosen seedline making up the "Christian Nations" (Gen. 35:11; Isa. 62:2; Acts 11:26) of the earth stands far superior to all other peoples in their call as God's servant race (Isa. 41:8, 44:21; Luke 1:54). Only these descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel scattered abroad (James 1:1; Deut. 4:27; Jer. 31:10; John 11:52) have carried God's Word, the Bible, throughout the world (Gen. 28:14; Isa. 43:10-12, 59:21), have used His Laws in the establishment of their civil governments and are the "Christians" opposed by the Satanic Anti-Christ forces of this world who do not recognize the true and living God (John 5:23, 8:19, 16:2-3).

WE BELIEVE in an existing being known as the Devil or Satan and called the Serpent (Gen. 3:1; Rev. 12:9), who has a literal "seed" or posterity in the earth (Gen. 3:15) commonly called Jews today (Rev. 2:9; 3:9; Isa. 65:15). These children of Satan (John 8:44-47; Matt. 13:38; John 8:23) through Cain (I John 2:22, 4:3) who have throughout history always been a curse to true Israel, the Children of God, because of a natural enmity between the two races (Gen. 3:15), because they do the works of their father the Devil (John 8:38-44), and because they please not God, and are contrary to all men (I Thes. 2:14-15), though they often pose as ministers of righteousness (II Cor. 11:13-15). The ultimate end of this evil race whose hands bear the blood of our Savior (Matt. 27:25) and all the righteous slain upon the earth (Matt. 23:35), is Divine judgment (Matt. 13:38-42, 15:13; Zech. 14:21). "


With these quotes in mind, I think it is clear to see that evangelical Christianity does NOT teach the love of Christ! (gasp!)

I won't use scripture out of context in nice "bit sized" quips to prove my point.. here is the Fourth Chapter of 1 John:

1 John
Chapter 4

1
1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2
This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God,
3
and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus 2 does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.
4
You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5
They belong to the world; accordingly, their teaching belongs to the world, and the world listens to them.
6
We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.
7
3 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God.
8
Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love.
9
In this way the love of God was revealed to us: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him.
10
In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins.
11
Beloved, if God so loved us, we also must love one another.
12
No one has ever seen God. Yet, if we love one another, God remains in us, and his love is brought to perfection in us.
13
4 This is how we know that we remain in him and he in us, that he has given us of his Spirit.
14
Moreover, we have seen and testify that the Father sent his Son as savior of the world.
15
Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God.
16
We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us. God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him.
17
In this is love brought to perfection among us, that we have confidence on the day of judgment because as he is, so are we in this world.
18
There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love.
19
We love because he first loved us.
20
If anyone says, "I love God," but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God 5 whom he has not seen.
21
This is the commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.


So, based on these truths, and your own answers, we can see the following:

1. You are an evangelical christian.
2. Evangelical christianity teaches hate.
3. The bible teaches that those who hate do not know god.

My questions to you:

1. Why would you belong to an organization that clearly has the spirit of anti-christ?
2. Why do you thank god for IEDs?
3. Why do you believe that when "fags" die, God "laughs".
4. Why do you believe salvation is only for the white race?

[elshamah]

Jun 7, 2008 15:12:43 GMT @prometheus said:

Very easy! G-d's name is ineffable. It can't possibly be more simple than this.

why should freemasonry give a close opinion on this, if it is not a religion ?

What you, I or anyone else may use to denote G-d's name will NEVER BE His TRUE and REAL Name. I hope and pray that you understand this point and see also to argue it would be moot.

I don't care what you or freemasonry say about this. The bible give to God many names.

ldolphin.org/Names.html

and this is what counts for me.

A person who has ears and hears concludes the following: But Jesus saith , G-d is the way, the truth, and the Life: no man cometh to the Father, but by a personal identification with G-d. (Jn.14:6)

Jesus forever masked things for those unable to understand fully. He even let this be known in Scripture.

you might ask your freemason brother, if he agrees with me :

1:1 In the beginning1 was the Word, and the Word was with God,2 and the Word was fully God.3 1:14 Now34 the Word became flesh35 and took up residence36 among us. We37 saw his glory – the glory of the one and only,38 full of grace and truth, who came from the Father.

this is one of the most clear passages, that show, that Jesus IS God. Jesus said, nobody comes to the father , than through him, because, the only way, to be a christian, is to get mercy, grace , and forgiveness from God. And this is only possible through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. That's why jesus said, nobody comes to the father, than through him.

Yes! I agree with this.

Yet, here you are doing just that! Do you see the irony?!?!

with associate, i mean to become a freemason. Far from me to be ever one.

You've generalized. This is a false premise. The organization does no such thing. Your comment is based on one person's comment. That person speaks only for himself and not the organization.

so what is the opinion of the organisation ?

Just a very small guess: To make darn sure people with your mind-frame and attitude never enter into such a great organization and cause ungodly and unnecessary havoc?

why do you think it is a great organisation ?

You post to testify. You've done this. Why do continue to linger?

do you want me to stop to post at this forum ? no problem for me.

We tried your food. Your food is tainted. It causes all sorts of maladies.

my food is Jesus. If you think Jesus causes all sorts of maladies, i am sorry for you. The most wonderful and precious i found in my life, is Jesus Christ.

If you desire to continue to shove it down our throats, please accept our apologies for refusing to accept this action.

oh, don't apologize. it's completely your decision, i have nothing to do with it, and it makes no difference in my life. In yours, however, it does, and will. That's my strong conviction.

Jun 7, 2008 14:25:40 GMT elshamah said:

Effort is being made to do this but you appear to still be here posting how wrong it is to do so if it is not what you approve of.

I give you a hint. If it is the desire of yours, and the other participants of this thread, that i leave, i'll do so, no problem. There are others that need to hear what i have to say.

Jun 7, 2008 14:25:40 GMT elshamah said:

I am not here to condemn you. I have said that already.

Ya sure have an odd way of showing this.[/quote]

Do you think, it would be love, if i see someone using drugs, and i say : welldone, continue to do it, only because the user wants to hear, what pleases him ?

[elshamah]

Jun 7, 2008 15:31:57 GMT marcopolo said:

With these quotes in mind, I think it is clear to see that evangelical Christianity does NOT teach the love of Christ! (gasp!)

you have just quoted personal opinions of some pastors. So this is not representative at all.

So, based on these truths, and your own answers, we can see the following:

1. You are an evangelical christian.
2. Evangelical christianity teaches hate.
3. The bible teaches that those who hate do not know god.

My questions to you:

1. Why would you belong to an organization that clearly has the spirit of anti-christ?
2. Why do you thank god for IEDs?
3. Why do you believe that when "fags" die, God "laughs".
4. Why do you believe salvation is only for the white race?

your conclusions are just hilarious. BTW. you have not responded directly to what i have said to you in the previous post.

I thought your church makes part of the evangelical churches ?

[billmcelligott]

elshamah
I don't care what you or freemasonry say about this. The bible give to God many names.

ldolphin.org/Names.html

and this is what counts for me.

These are names given to God by man, the only time God himself gave his name was to Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

I am what I am, I will be what I will be, in and of everything. This is what Freemasonry teaches, that your God is supreme and is to come first in your life. In all ritual in Freemasonry and in all oaths taken the term God is used before all else.

The hebrew God was always referred to as the God with no name by the Romans. Elohim, Adonai, Great Architect were names to describe God.

Example : Elohim comes from the Hebrew root meaning "strength" or "power".

do you want me to stop to post at this forum ? no problem for me.

That is not for any one member to define. To ask a member to stop posting it takes a vote of the Moderators. There must be a reason , breach of the rules etc. it is not done lightly at all.

You know elshamah, that to reply in anger is not the right way. You are entitled to your opinions and your beliefs and all here will defend your right to have them and excercise them.

To answer Tamrin's questioning of me you are one against many in this debate and the Moderators must protect your right to be heard.

As I have pointed out before, I have been to Christian Forums across the internet and all I had to do was mention I was a Freemason to be shut out immediately. I certainly think we have shown the maximum civility here in this thread and you have had the freedon to explain your position. However [sorry P] that means that others have the same right to express their views.

[marcopolo]

Jun 7, 2008 16:36:46 GMT elshamah said:

Jun 7, 2008 15:31:57 GMT marcopolo said:

you have just quoted personal opinions of some pastors. So this is not representative at all.

Hmm. I disagree. These are quotes from PASTORS, LEADERS of your faith, one of which runs one of the largest evangelical churches in the world, and the other which has a broadcast audience of millions.

So, based on these truths, and your own answers, we can see the following:

1. You are an evangelical christian.
2. Evangelical christianity teaches hate.
3. The bible teaches that those who hate do not know god.

My questions to you:

1. Why would you belong to an organization that clearly has the spirit of anti-christ?
2. Why do you thank god for IEDs?
3. Why do you believe that when "fags" die, God "laughs".
4. Why do you believe salvation is only for the white race?


your conclusions are just hilarious. BTW. you have not responded directly to what i have said to you in the previous post.

I thought your church makes part of the evangelical churches ?

I personally don't find the things I posted even remotely funny, much less "hilarious". Please respond to questions 1-4, since BY YOUR OWN CLAIM you are here simply to testify to your faith.

I have presented that faith, through the mouths of it's own leaders (not from 100 years ago, from the last several years). I'm also not quoting from a document admitted to being a hoax. These quotes are verifiable (try youtube to see the quotes from the men themselves).

If you do not answer questions 1-4, it must be true and you must be hiding something.

[marcopolo]

It is not the desire of mine that you leave. I think you have found a great deal of tolerance and grace in this forum.

If you choose to portray yourself as the martyr, it will not be on our account.

You are welcomed to stay and post as long as you like. I'm still not sure why you would leave in the middle of a discussion begun to "testify to your faith" when there are questions you have yet to answer regarding your faith.

[thevoiceofreason]

Jun 7, 2008 8:11:19 GMT @leonardo said:

Jun 6, 2008 17:58:05 GMT thevoiceofreason said:

I believe that I have already answered this question. In a lodge room I have no issue working with Brothers of the Christian and other man made "faiths." BUT as Freemason, we are also to stand up to tyranny and the Jesus myth is leading to great tryanny in the USA. This once beautiful country based on Deist principles of reason and logic is being erroded from within by rabid superstitious nonsense.

I belong to a number of GL's actually. My primary work is done with The National Sovereign Sanctuary —The Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis-Misraïm. Why do you ask?

www.godvsthebible.com

Why do I ask?

It's unusual for me to come across someone from any GL/Obedience who professes to be a Mason but seems to lack appreciation of another's belief. As a Mason you are well aware a very high proportion within our Fraternity believe what the Bible says about Jesus, yet you seem to think they are somehow delusional because of this.

I know many brothers who follow different types of religion and some who adhere to none, at all. But you are the first I have come across who seems so set upon attacking their beliefs in such a forthright, public manner. For me this is unusual.

I will say again, it is not the "belief" so much that is the problem. Sure, I do find the belief in what has no rational to be absurd, but f where just that than I suppose it would be harmless. Kind of like how a childs belief in a Tooth Fairy or how someones belief in a Garden Gnome would do me no harm. I fight against the tyranny of those beliefs have and continue to inflict upon an erosion of American civil liberties. You seem to not comprehend that as a Freemason, part of your duty is to stand up to tryanny. Many of your Bretheren over time have sacrificied their lives for such.

At the end of the day I do not have the power to make anyone a "non believer." Thier own text will do this for them should they ever choose to really study it. I would guess that 98% of Christian Freemasons (and Christians in general) have never really studied the Bible. I would like to know how anyone can and still find a shread of factual truth within it.

www.godvsthebible.com

[thevoiceofreason]

I do call God by the term G.A.O.T.U. yes. In reality when I think of God I cannot comprehend him. It is impossible for me to do so for it is beyond my rational capacity. A Deist admits this instead of seaking to a make a God who looks like us in order to be able to bend him to our will.

I reject the God of the Bible, yes. I reject Jesus Christ, yes. I reject Satan, yes. I Reject the Holy Spirit, yes. I reject Mohammed, yes. I Reject Zeus, yes.

I reject the superstition of faith.

I believe in God's natural religion because I am a part of it. God is, God does not require my belief nor seek my worship. God is evident through the works of creation and the order of the universe. God has placed a small part of himself in all of us. Kind of the like the scientist placing a drop of his own blood within the petri dish. It is my mission in life to communicate with Gods gift to me by using Gods gift of reason.


www.godvsthebible.com

[elshamah]

Jun 7, 2008 16:48:28 GMT billmcelligott said:

elshamah
I don't care what you or freemasonry say about this. The bible give

to God many names.

ldolphin.org/Names.html

and this is what counts for me.

These are names given to God by man, the only time God himself gave his name was to Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

i believe, the bible was written by man, but they were inspired by the holy ghost. So they wrote, what was God's intention to say to us. That's why each single name given to God in the bible has his approval, and is in fact to God's name.

I am what I am, I will be what I will be, in and of everything. This is what Freemasonry teaches, that your God is supreme and is to come first in your life. In all ritual in Freemasonry and in all oaths taken the term God is used before all else.

why does God play a role in freemasonrys rituals, if its not a religion ?

The hebrew God was always referred to as the God with no name by the Romans. Elohim, Adonai, Great Architect were names to describe God.

the opinions of the romans is irrelevant.

That is not for any one member to define. To ask a member to stop posting it takes a vote of the Moderators. There must be a reason , breach of the rules etc. it is not done lightly at all.

in this case, if someone is bothered with my presence, just do not post and respond anymore. I don't see my job here finished yet.

You know elshamah, that to reply in anger is not the right way. You are entitled to your opinions and your beliefs and all here will defend your right to have them and excercise them.

don't worry, i am not in anger. I just am telling, no problem to leave, if this is required and desired.

As I have pointed out before, I have been to Christian Forums across the internet and all I had to do was mention I was a Freemason to be shut out immediately.

i am banned frequencly , as well, in diverse different forums. no news, if this will happen here. if you would come to my forum ,if i had one, you would have freedom to speach, as long as respect would be in place.

I certainly think we have shown the maximum civility here in this thread and you have had the freedon to explain your position. However [sorry P] that means that others have the same right to express their views.

that's nice.

[elshamah]

Hmm. I disagree. These are quotes from PASTORS, LEADERS of your faith, one of which runs one of the largest evangelical churches in the world, and the other which has a broadcast audience of millions.

Same, as Albert Pike, had a relevant role as freemason, but when i cite him, the participants here say : oh, that was just his own opinion, not shared by the organisation.

I personally don't find the things I posted even remotely funny, much less "hilarious". Please respond to questions 1-4, since BY YOUR OWN CLAIM you are here simply to testify to your faith.

well, the facts per se might not be, but you came to these discursion with the base of what i call personal opinion of some alterated pastors. Since what they said is , as i said, not what the evangelical church as a hole defends, no further explication is needed.

I have presented that faith, through the mouths of it's own leaders (not from 100 years ago, from the last several years). I'm also not quoting from a document admitted to being a hoax. These quotes are verifiable (try youtube to see the quotes from the men themselves).

If you do not answer questions 1-4, it must be true and you must be hiding something.

as said, since these are only personal opinions of these pastors, i don't see any necessity to give further explications.

It's you BTW. which are hiding , and not responding again to my post before the last one.

[billmcelligott]

elshamah
i believe, the bible was written by man, but they were inspired by the holy ghost. So they wrote, what was God's intention to say to us. That's why each single name given to God in the bible has his approval, and is in fact to God's name.

That does not change the fact that God himself never acknowledged any name but "I am".

I sit on a chair , I call it a chair, God would tell me to sit on a chair. But man came up with the name, 'chair'.

why does God play a role in freemasonrys rituals, if its not a religion ?

In mainstream Freemasonry there is one question to which every potential candidate must answer YES.

"Do you believe in a Supreme Being". If you answer NO, you may not become a Freemason.

the opinions of the romans is irrelevant.

It was just a fact. You can take the fact or leave it.

It is my belief that God is in all things in all people, He is the spirit of life that springs forth with goodness from even the hardest hearted person. I believe the universe resides in your own mortality, in your own conscienceness. You and only you know what is good and what is evil. I believe the Sprit of God was within the man called Jesus, I believe that a man filled with the love of God would justly say,

"I am the light that is over all. I am the All. The All came forth out of me. And to me the All has come."

"Split a piece of wood - I am there."

"Lift a stone, and you will find me there."


Let us just check the wording here of the Thomas Gospel, it says I am the All, this is remarkably similar to the phrasing to Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

also
15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

We see here that by saying the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, it is in fact as far as the Hebrew was concerned would be the God of ALL , the God of Everything.

Just the wanderings of the mind of an uneducated Freemason.

So we now ask the important question did God direct the construction of all the Gospels or only those Chosen by First Council of Nicaea ? The foundation of the Catholic faith.

[marcopolo]

Jun 7, 2008 19:49:35 GMT elshamah said:

Hmm. I disagree. These are quotes from PASTORS, LEADERS of your faith, one of which runs one of the largest evangelical churches in the world, and the other which has a broadcast audience of millions.

Same, as Albert Pike, had a relevant role as freemason, but when i cite him, the participants here say : oh, that was just his own opinion, not shared by the organisation.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! WE HAVE A WINNER! So, even in a faith that you and I believe is TRUTH and is (by and large) a uniform faith has some odd interpretations. How many more unusual and personal interpretations would you expect from a fraternity that admitted those of all faiths? You see, this is a very basic and very flawed logic. I could, literally, do this with ANY organization. I mean, I was even able to do it for my OWN church!!! Do you see?

well, the facts per se might not be, but you came to these discursion with the base of what i call personal opinion of some alterated pastors. Since what they said is , as i said, not what the evangelical church as a hole defends, no further explication is needed.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Again!

What Pike has said, and what some people who claim Freemasonry as THEIR "religion" does NOT (as you can see by the posts on this very forum) represent the vast majority of Masonry. In fact, Freemasonry openly states that it is NOT to be taken as a religion.

I have presented that faith, through the mouths of it's own leaders (not from 100 years ago, from the last several years). I'm also not quoting from a document admitted to being a hoax. These quotes are verifiable (try youtube to see the quotes from the men themselves).

If you do not answer questions 1-4, it must be true and you must be hiding something.


as said, since these are only personal opinions of these pastors, i don't see any necessity to give further explications.

Agreed! And what you have posted are only personal opinions of either those conspiracy theorist nutjobs who are trying to sell books (again, why are some of these sites co-located with 9/11 "truth" sites and zionist/illuminati stuff?), those out of touch (and frankly in conflict with) general Masonic principles, or those who have left the fraternity.

Yet, you come into this forum with the exact same tactic and ask us to defend those very statements. See the logic?

Ask me to defend Masonry being a religion? I can't, it's not. Just like you can't defend those beliefs that are so out of touch with how you practice your evangelical Christianity.

Ask me to defend the writings of Pike? I can't, I don't agree with them, and most Masons do not. But, like me quoting those extremists, it sure is easy to quote him if you are making a case, huh?

And finally, I could continue the same logical dishonesty that conspiracy theorists use:

1. I could continue to accuse you of those beliefs I posted. I can continue to press that your religion DOES in fact believe them, and find even more nutjob quotes to support my case.
2. If you say your church does NOT support them, I could claim that since those quotes are from YOUR leaders, you were just ignorant or too "low ranking" in your church to know the REAL SECRET! (sound familiar?)
3. And, of course, I could continue quoting page after page of scripture which said your group, as it practiced hate, was an abomination to God..etc, etc, etc.

It's you BTW. which are hiding , and not responding again to my post before the last one.

Sorry. Honestly, there have been so many questions and posts, I may have missed one. It was purely an oversight on my part.

Are you asking about Great Architect of the Universe as a name of God? If so, do you YOU not agree that He is the great architect of this universe? I call God by many names, just like in the chorus we sing "Because of who You are" (you know, because of who You are, I give you glory. Because of who You are, I give you praise. Because of who You are, I will lift my voice in praise. Lord I worship You because of who You are" Then, this Chorus, which you've probably sung yourself:

Jehovah Jireh (you’re my provider)
Jehovah Nissi (you reign in victory)
Jehovah Shalom (you’re my prince of peace) (my prince of peace)
Because of who you are (because of who you are)
Jehovah Rapha (when I’m sick in my body, you’re my healer)
Jehovah Shammah (you’re always with me)
Jehovah Sabaoth (you’re my strong deliverer)
Because of who you are (yes you are)

These are ALL names of God. Right? We have no "perfect" name of God, so we Christians have always called him by his revelations to us.

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I am. Holy God. Everlasting Father. Prince of Peace.. on and on and on.

I can call God, "My refuge and my strength" when I'm weak.

I can call God, the Healer of my heart.

And yes, I can call God "The Great Architect of the Universe".

(If that's not the question you were referring to, please let me know. I'm happy to answer any questions either regarding my Faith, or my Fraternity.)

[marcopolo]

After re-reading this thread, I think you are probably surprised, elshamah, at the response you were given.

No anger. No hatred. No consensus even among Masons on our "faiths". If we were a religion, we'd be a pretty schizophrenic one, no?

I think what you've found is two-fold.

1. Those of us who have heard these tired/illogical/false arguments over, and over, and over, and over again.

2. Those who want to debate Christianity with you.

I hope you have taken something from this discussion. If, in the end, you still wish to believe the quotes of Pike and hoaxes like Taxil.. that is surely your prerogative. Just please think about the logical errors I showed you and as you pray, ask the HS for guidance.

Were people who were so willing to share THEIR faith with me,and extend me such patience and grace.. to not ban me and to also testify to their own faith in Christ... does this really sound like a bunch of Satanists? Are people who are so informed on both their fraternity AND my own Christian faith likely to be duped or uneducated about what their fraternity believes. (Be honest, you have to admit that many of us here have and could continue to run circles around you theologically). If, after seeing all these things, you can still hold to a belief that Masonry is somehow not only a religion, but a satanic religion? I really can't see much more that could be done to convince you.

I wish you the best and will continue to answer any questions you might have.

God bless you in your walk with Him. There is surely "spiritual warfare" to be fought, but I know that if you were to sit through the 3 degrees of Masonry, you would be embarrassed to have spent so much time fighting something that just isn't what you have been misled to believe it is.

BTW, one last chance to read my paper.

staffs.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=articles&action=display&thread=4445&page=1

[elshamah]

Jun 7, 2008 20:54:38 GMT marcopolo said:

Jun 7, 2008 19:49:35 GMT elshamah said:

And yes, I can call God "The Great Architect of the Universe".

i will only respond with this question : is GADU intend by freemasons as the same God of the bible, Jaweh ?

[thevoiceofreason]

Jun 7, 2008 21:21:40 GMT elshamah said:

Jun 7, 2008 20:54:38 GMT marcopolo said:

Jun 7, 2008 19:49:35 GMT elshamah said:

And yes, I can call God "The Great Architect of the Universe".

i will only respond with this question : is GADU intend by freemasons as the same God of the bible, Jaweh ?

Not by me, the God of the Bible is man made.

www.godvsthebible.com

[marcopolo]

Jun 7, 2008 21:21:40 GMT elshamah said:

Jun 7, 2008 20:54:38 GMT marcopolo said:

Jun 7, 2008 19:49:35 GMT elshamah said:

And yes, I can call God "The Great Architect of the Universe".

i will only respond with this question : is GADU intend by freemasons as the same God of the bible, Jaweh ?

If you are still asking that question, you have completely missed (or dismissed) all of the hard work that several of us have put into this thread.

First of all, I've never seen or heard GADU before. I can only assume you are abbreviating Great Architect of the Universe. Freemasonry doesn't intended to mean any specific God. It is meant to recognize that there is an architect of the universe. Something greater than us. I hold that the architect of the universe is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The great I AM.

You, by the name you keep using, prefer to refer to him as Yahweh.

I'm sure that some "oneness" pentecostals would take issue with both of us and believe the Great Architect of the Universe is JESUS (as that is the ONLY name revealed of the God of the Bible.)

You are, again, confusing attributes with name.

I have tried every other method I can think of.. how about this.

If God had a driver's license. What would it say after "Name:...."?

(BTW, I've got to say I'm a bit disappointed. After my 2 previous posts, you can "only respond with this question", which is asking the same tired question in another manner? Seriously?)

[corab]

Jun 7, 2008 0:39:26 GMT thevoiceofreason said:

I would not say that belief in God amounts to "faith."

Nor would I, and indeed I didn't mention God. Faith goes much deeper than belief, and comes in many forms. Faith in yourself, in mankind, in some expression of divinity, in science, in reason, even.

I think with a rational mind and faith is the 100% suspention of rationality.

In your worldview, maybe. In mine, faith is having the courage to trust in something you cannot know.

What would you like to know about The International Sovereign Sanctuary —The Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis-Misraïm?

Just some general information, really. I know the Rite takes a unique position in its structure, most obviously seen by the outsider in its greater number of degrees -- are you able to give us an insight in that structure? Perhaps some historical background?

We have lodges in England.

Now that I did not know. Do you have contact details / website?