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Post by hollandr on Jun 10, 2008 11:02:23 GMT
I think perhaps we have given Angelo reason to think before casting the first stone.
But let us not ridicule his beliefs.
For many years I too believed that the god of the OT was the same was the god of the NT. These days I seriously doubt that but there were many things I had to understand first.
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Post by hollandr on Jun 10, 2008 11:06:01 GMT
>Christ did condemn ........... those who interfere with children
Brother Lauderdale
I must have missed that in my bible studies. Do you have a reference?
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Post by elshamah on Jun 10, 2008 11:11:22 GMT
Micah Kills a Whole Town Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.) From: www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm maximus have you ever made the attempt, to go through each of these accusations, and try to UNDERSTAND them from a other perspective ? Did you ever take a study bible in your hands, and studied all these passages, to see a other point of view ? |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 10, 2008 11:23:27 GMT
I think perhaps we have given Angelo reason to think before casting the first stone. But let us not ridicule his beliefs. For many years I too believed that the god of the OT was the same was the god of the NT. These days I seriously doubt that but there were many things I had to understand first. isn't it remarkable that Jesus embraced the old testament, without criticizing anything ? |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 10, 2008 11:26:36 GMT
assorted symbols of freemasonry : www.christian-restoration.com/fmasonry/symbols.htm'The signs, symbols and inscriptions date from...the Sumerian civilizations..., Chaldea [Babylon], Assyria, Greece, Rome and even in Mexico and Yucatan... Some rites of the Scottish rite of Freemasonry of our Mother Jurisdiction have been in existence from time immemorial. For we teach the same grand truths, the same sublime philosophies...as those adepts of the ancient mysteries taught in their esoteric rites' - Henry C. Clausen, 'Messages for a Mission' [the Supreme Council 33rd degree, A & ARFM, Mother Jurisdiction of the World, 1971] 5-7 more .... www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/symbology/1o5.htmwww.theforbiddenknowledge.com/symbology/2o5.htmwww.theforbiddenknowledge.com/symbology/3o5.htmwww.theforbiddenknowledge.com/symbology/4o5.htmwww.theforbiddenknowledge.com/symbology/5o5.htmOnce again a bunch of inaccurate and dowright dishonest summations from those who claim the high moral ground. They are simply repeating stuff they saw elsewhere, there is nothing on those pages that hasn't been around for centuries, and its still lies damned lies and distortions. The most relevant part in the whole quote for me was this "Mother Jurisdiction of the World, 1971" Total and unmittigated bollox, there never has been a single body overseeing freemasonry. since freemasons should lie , to defend freemasonry, why should i believe, these are dowright dishonest summations ? does the book of Henry C. Clausen, 'Messages for a Mission' [the Supreme Council 33rd degree, A & ARFM, Mother Jurisdiction of the World, 1971 not exist ? is it not written there, black on white , what i have cited  ? |
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Post by corab on Jun 10, 2008 11:27:09 GMT
I think Angelo has found the "ignore" button -- he's not responded to any of my requests for a response. |
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Post by corab on Jun 10, 2008 11:31:34 GMT
since freemasons should lie , to defend freemasonry, 1. I have never had need to defend freemasonry as there is nothing to defend; and 2. I have never lied about anything to do with freemasonry. Ignore me all you want, and question my beliefs if you feel compelled to, but do not question my integrity. There is no such thing as a "Mother Jurisdiction of the World". No one single body has authority over all of freemasonry. Just like the Catholic Church does not have authority over all of Christianity, try as it might. |
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Post by droche on Jun 10, 2008 12:26:19 GMT
assorted symbols of freemasonry : www.christian-restoration.com/fmasonry/symbols.htm'The signs, symbols and inscriptions date from...the Sumerian civilizations..., Chaldea [Babylon], Assyria, Greece, Rome and even in Mexico and Yucatan... Some rites of the Scottish rite of Freemasonry of our Mother Jurisdiction have been in existence from time immemorial. For we teach the same grand truths, the same sublime philosophies...as those adepts of the ancient mysteries taught in their esoteric rites' - Henry C. Clausen, 'Messages for a Mission' [the Supreme Council 33rd degree, A & ARFM, Mother Jurisdiction of the World, 1971] 5-7 more .... www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/symbology/1o5.htmwww.theforbiddenknowledge.com/symbology/2o5.htmwww.theforbiddenknowledge.com/symbology/3o5.htmwww.theforbiddenknowledge.com/symbology/4o5.htmwww.theforbiddenknowledge.com/symbology/5o5.htmAngelo, (sigh) there is no such thing as "A&ARFM," and there is no such thing as "Mother Jurisdiction of the World" in the Freemasons. |
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Post by AndyF on Jun 10, 2008 12:34:54 GMT
Allright Angelo, here is some homework for you. If you look around on the internet you'll be able to find postal addresses, phone numbers, websites, and email addresses of Grand Lodges from all over the world. They've nothing to hide, to the contrary, they want to publicise the order to try to turn around a decline in membership. For this reason, you'll find them anywhere you care to look.
Just google "grand lodge contact" to get contact details.
Now then, as there is nothing secret about the existance of our organisation or its governing bodies, why would we hide an international head office? Surely such a thing would be so important to Freemasons everywhere, that its contact details would be easy to find? That, and it would be impossible (and pointless) to hide. Seriously, why hide your head office? Why deny there is one? Each jurisdiction operates seperately with its own Grand Lodge. We don't need one Grand Lodge with one set of rules
...actually, if you look around this forum you'll find discussions amongst masons debating this very point. Why would they be discussing the pros and cons of forming one governing body if it already existed?
The sites you are quoting from are making a buck by selling books about conspiracy theories and supposed exposes. A lot of the stuff on there has since been admitted to be a hoax by the very source of the information, many years ago.
So the people who originaly made this stuff up, admitted they made it up. Even if they decided not to confess, It has all been largely debunked and disproved many times by many people, both masons and non-masons.
So, you've testified your faith, and made unfounded allegations of satanic and ungodly behaviour against us. We in turn have described our individual beliefs, told you what Freemasonry is actually about, answered the allegations on the websites you link to, and answered all your questions.
You say you're here to testify your faith - you've done that.
You've made allegations against us - we've answered them.
You've asked how Freemasonry could possibly be compatible with Christianity - we explained.
Now, is there a punch line? Has there been a point to all this? Are you building to a point? Or just continuous provocation? Make a statement, we're all ears! I'd like to think that these 24 pages of discussion were leading to something, or I'll lose sleep knowing it was a pointless waste of everyones time.
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Post by leonardo on Jun 10, 2008 12:40:23 GMT
I just want to thank Max for a great post!
Thanks Bro! ;d
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Post by leonardo on Jun 10, 2008 12:42:17 GMT
"I am now firmly of the opinion that engaging Angelo (elshamah) in further discussion to help him see the weakness of his argument is an exercise is futility. A waste of time, if you like."Bro Leo, I thought that from the very beginning. I have found from past experience that discussing anything religious, moral or philosophical with Fundamentalist Evangelicals is a waste of effort. By and large their minds are closed, they believe the Bible to be literally true, they will simply reject out of hand any alternative interpretation. As for Freemasonry many consider us to be the Spawn of Satan. A few years ago I arranged a visit to a Masonic Temple by a man I then worked with who had such Fundamentalist attitudes. Afterwards he said that he had enjoyed the visit but of course we had hidden all the bits we didn't want him to see such as the sacrificial knives, the image of Baphomet, the inverted Crucifix, the Pentagrams etc. He simply would not believe me when I said that we had no such things, falling back on the old chestnut that only the Brethren in the Highest Degrees would know about such matters. Up against such pre-convinced attitudes one is, I agree, wasting one's time to argue. Nowadays I simply shrug my shoulders and say. "If that's what you choose to believe, you won't be convinced otherwise by me" and leave them to get on with it. Yes, Bro. Well said. Let them indeed get on with it. I have said before I will always give someone the benefit of the doubt, that is until all doubt is removed. Angelo's position is, in my view - beyond any doubt - irreconcilable with reason. |
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Post by AndyF on Jun 10, 2008 12:52:33 GMT
Angelo's position is, in my view - beyond any doubt - irreconcilable with reason. ...but has he stated a position? I've seen lots of implications and questions and biblical quotes, but no outright "I reckon this..." I'd love to hear that. Just once. Make a point, man! |
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Post by leonardo on Jun 10, 2008 13:00:34 GMT
Angelo's position is, in my view - beyond any doubt - irreconcilable with reason. ...but has he stated a position? I've seen lots of implications and questions and biblical quotes, but no outright "I reckon this..." I'd love to hear that. Just once. Make a point, man! Oh, I think we can easily ascertain where he's coming from ;D I think Bro Cora has hit the nail on the head when she said he (Angelo) has hit the ignore button. He is definitely very selective on what he responds to! |
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 10, 2008 13:01:05 GMT
elshamah,
The very sites you referenced also contain the following:
1. ALL CHURCHES LIE! (Um, I'm assuming you don't believe that.)
2. The government is about to start planting microchips into all citizens.
3. Mind control is being exercised by the Beatles.
4. The Illuminati (along with Masons) planned 9/11
And my absolute favorite. That George W. Bush is openly (in front of photographers and a public event) showing a "satanic symbol." When I looked at the picture, I literally choked on my coffee. It is George W. Bush giving the famous "Hook 'em Horns!" sign of the University of Texas Football Team. (Where he daughter was attending college at the time) This is a sign that is so well known here in Texas (Where President Bush was giving the speech) that it is laughable to any Texan to see anything in that sign. (BTW, our rivals, the Texas A&M Aggies use a "Thumbs up" sign for "Gig 'em Aggies!", I can only imagine what crazy satanic reference that must be.)
Do you really feel credible posting links to that site? Do you believe the other theories listed there are credible or honest?
Here is something you quoted earlier (Have you read the book you are quoting?)
"'The signs, symbols and inscriptions date from...the Sumerian civilizations..., Chaldea [Babylon], Assyria, Greece, Rome and even in Mexico and Yucatan... Some rites of the Scottish rite of Freemasonry of our Mother Jurisdiction have been in existence from time immemorial. For we teach the same grand truths, the same sublime philosophies...as those adepts of the ancient mysteries taught in their esoteric rites' - Henry C. Clausen, 'Messages for a Mission' [the Supreme Council 33rd degree, A & ARFM, Mother Jurisdiction of the World, 1971] 5-7"
Here is what was actually written in the book:
1. First of all, don't you find it a bit odd that all of the quotes are filled with "....information...."?
2. The "mysteries and philosphies" that are taught through this symbolism? Here are quotes on what the author wrote about what was being taught.
"We teach our members the highest ethics, the wise expositions of philosophy and the blessings of charity. Our code of conduct stems from the precepts of Chivalry, the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule."
YIKES! Teaching Chivalry, The Precepts of the 10 Commandments and The Golden Rule! (GASP!) How dark and nefarious! (Sarcasm)
What other dark secrets are these Masons up to? (BTW, you are, again, quoting one man's opinion of the Scottish Rite of Masonry.. Just like you did with Pike.) While I personally agree more with this man's interpretation, it is still not (as their IS NOT) a "universal/uniform/dogmatic teaching of what The Scottish Rite (much less Masonry as a whole) believes:
OK, back to the dark secrets and quotes:
"We stand for positive programs but fight with moral courage and enthusiasm every force or power that would seek to destroy freedom, including spiritual despotism and political tyranny. We believe and teach that sovereignty of the state resides in control by the people themselves and not in some self-appointed dictator or despotic totalitarian. We therefore advocate complete separation of church and state, absolute freedom and protection of religion, press and assembly, and the dignity of every individual. Those we consider vital for the ultimate liberties and independence of our people."
Oh no! Who would teach such aberrant and dark things! (sarcasm) Ah, now I understand why the Catholic Church (which was very political and corrupt at the time) went after Masonry with a vengeance. NOW I understand why the likes of Hitler and Stalin despised Masons.
Again, at the risk of sounding offensive, you are either not very bright or not very honest. I'm not sure which it is. You quote a book, which you have never read, completely out of context. I'm able to use the EXACT same book to show you what you are saying is nonsense.
And yet you STILL have the audacity to continue to quote these pages, which we have shown over, and over, and over to either create false information out of thin air, or to cut and paste quotes to fit their lies.
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Post by AndyF on Jun 10, 2008 13:15:44 GMT
I googled this "mother lodge of the world" thing, and it turns out that those words form a part of the long winded title of the Grand lodge for the southern jurisdiction of the 33rd degree of the Scottish Rite. scottishrite.orgJust to explain for Angelo's benefit, the scottish rite is but one "path" you may choose to take, if you like, once you've done your third degree. Its considered extra curricular, and does not form a part of craft freemasonry. This particular body, to which brother Henry C. Clausen belonged, looked after the conferring of the 33rd degree (yep, one degree, handed out in name only, no actual ritual to it) in the southern states of the USA. THAT IS ALL. Despite the fancy name they've given themselves, my Lodge, nor any other mason's mother lodge on this forum answers to this particular body. They may choose to join this seperate masonic entity, but it has no say over their mother lodge. It only governs the 33rd degree council of the scottish rite, in the southern states of the USA. Bottom line: this is not some all powerful governing body of freemasonry everywhere. |
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Post by leonardo on Jun 10, 2008 13:19:13 GMT
And 503 ;d
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 10, 2008 13:26:23 GMT
BTW, and I mean this sincerely. It may help your understanding of some of these quotes if you understand the following:
Most of what you are quoting is from the Scottish Rite. (I will explain this, though it is already explained in my short paper I've asked you many times to read and have posted links to!)
The Scottish Rite is an appendant (i.e. extra/optional/separate) body of Freemasonry. Many Masons do not belong to the Scottish Rite. The Scottish Rite has up to the "33rd Degree", but this is somewhat misunderstood. While all Masons take the first 3 degrees individually, The Scottish Rite does not. In my jurisdiction you can receive 32 of the degrees on THE SAME DAY. (I'm just explaining in case you somehow believe that a "32nd Degree Mason" is a high level or all-wise scholar of Freemasonry.
The Scottish Rite is also, (IMO), by far the most "philosophical" rite. Meaning they are very interested in studying history, great thoughts and thinkers throughout history. Plato, Socrates, etc. They also study the great human concepts (charity, liberty, freedom, equality) throughout history. Just like I think understanding the Magna Carta gives me a better understanding and deeper respect for the United States Constitution, and how it came to be. So do many Masons study the history of philosophy.
That being said, you now understand why some of the more "inflammatory" (in your view) statements all come from quotes on the Scottish Rite. You see, people tend to really bring their personal views of the world to the Scottish Rite.
There are 2 other "major" (at least in the US) appendant bodies which you have not quoted from a single time. Not once. The York Rite and the Shrine.
I didn't want to assume you were aware of why some of the quotes you were reading that were attributed to "Masonic Authors" (and being dishonestly attributed as Masonic Authorities, and being held up as Universal Masonic beleifs) were seemingly contradictory and may even be controversial.
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 10, 2008 13:35:19 GMT
Angelo,
Are you embarrassed at some of the misinformation, lies, and hoaxes that you have posted to falsely accuse us?
I'm not talking about points up for debate (like whether it is proper for a Christian to meet with non-Christians), I'm talking about outright falsehoods like the Taxil Hoax.
I'm surprised that there has been no apology on your part.
I'm quite sure that if I accused an entire group of people of something based on misinformation, I would feel convicted and at least apologize on that part.
Nothing?
Also,
Could you confirm whether or not you believe the following? (Simple yes or no.)
If not, please tell me on a scale of 1-10 how plausible you find them. (I will answer below as an example)
1. ALL CHURCHES LIE! (Um, I'm assuming you don't believe that.)
marcopolo: 1. ALL is too broad. Some churches may lie, but I feel the vast majority are presenting what the believe to be true.
2. The government is about to start planting microchips into all citizens.
marcopolo: 1. Nonsense. (Do I hear black helicopters?)
3. Mind control is being exercised by the Beatles.
marcopolo: 1. Nonsense. (Shall I make my tinfoil hat now?)
4. The Illuminati (along with Masons) planned 9/11
marcopolo: 1. Nonsense. Not only nonsense, but particularly offensive as I knew people involved in this tragedy.
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Post by droche on Jun 10, 2008 13:54:27 GMT
I googled this "mother lodge of the world" thing, and it turns out that those words form a part of the long winded title of the Grand lodge for the southern jurisdiction of the 33rd degree of the Scottish Rite. scottishrite.orgJust to explain for Angelo's benefit, the scottish rite is but one "path" you may choose to take, if you like, once you've done your third degree. Its considered extra curricular, and does not form a part of craft freemasonry. This particular body, to which brother Henry C. Clausen belonged, looked after the conferring of the 33rd degree (yep, one degree, handed out in name only, no actual ritual to it) in the southern states of the USA. THAT IS ALL. Despite the fancy name they've given themselves, my Lodge, nor any other mason's mother lodge on this forum answers to this particular body. They may choose to join this seperate masonic entity, but it has no say over their mother lodge. It only governs the 33rd degree council of the scottish rite, in the southern states of the USA. Bottom line: this is not some all powerful governing body of freemasonry everywhere. OK, thanks for the clarification. I am not doubting what you have written, but I don't see how they can call themselves Mother Lodge of the World since they have jurisdiction over only 39 states in the USA. But I digress. |
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 10, 2008 14:00:30 GMT
Hey, if there's one thing we Masons like more than pins and membership cards... It's grandiose titles.  I hear something like "Right Excellent Grand Illustrious Master of the Most Sovereign Order of the Golden Goose" and I expect to see someone to race into the room in a golden chariot. Then the door opens... "Oh, it's Bob." (BTW, elshamah, the title above was fictional. Please don't post it on forbiddenknowledge as some new secret Illuminati order you have discovered) Ahh, humor. It's a good thing sometimes. |
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