i am a born again, evangelical christian

[droche]

Angelo, I look forward to your ignoring this question as you have faithfully done with most of mine and others, but if you are truly interested in overcoming evil, why do you not work to eliminate true evil in the world, such as an end to violence, drug abuse (which is responsible for anywhere from 50-80% of crime) conflict and what have you. Surely these are issues in Brazil like they are in the countries other posters are from. Why do you pick on a group that is harmless and which has done a lot of it's members a lot of good and has done a lot of good in the world? I think I know the answer and I think you are a phony.

In case you are thinking why don't I do the same things that I have suggested for you, the answer is, I do. I work with an inner-city population and every day I deal and struggle with kids shattered by drug abuse, violence, crime and conflict. To spend one's time attacking and attempting to tear down something that is harmless and in fact is basically good is a sinful waste of one's time, resources and spirit.

[marcopolo]

I've been to Brazil. I *KNOW* there is no shortage of places to help. The AIDS rate alone is off the charts. If you want to testify to your faith, go help clean up an AIDS patient today.

I seem to remember something about "When did we see you sick?"

If Angelo would take us up on this, even if out of trying to prove us wrong. This whole thread would have been worth it.

[lauderdale]

"......The Scottish Rite is an appendant (i.e. extra/optional/separate) body of Freemasonry. Many Masons do not belong to the Scottish Rite. The Scottish Rite has up to the "33rd Degree", but this is somewhat misunderstood. While all Masons take the first 3 degrees individually, The Scottish Rite does not. In my jurisdiction you can receive 32 of the degrees on THE SAME DAY. (I'm just explaining in case you somehow believe that a "32nd Degree Mason" is a high level or all-wise scholar of Freemasonry. "

==============================================

I would just like to clarify that in my Masonic Obedience, Le Droit Humain, the 32 degree is most certainly not attained in one day! It takes years of study and service to the Craft and to the Order to be achieve and the 33rd Degree is even more difficult to reach and limited in number. In UGLE too it takes many years of hard work and service to become a 32nd Degree Freemason.


One Day Classes and One Day 32nd Degrees are an American Masonic custom and I most seriously hope they never come to UK Freemasonry be that Co-Masonic or Malecraft.

[marcopolo]

I completely agree and certainly did not intend to make light of the Scottish Rite's 32nd degree. I just wanted to clarify that it was not a linear continuation of the 3 blue lodge degrees. It is often held out as the "highest level of masonry" by detractors.

The 33rd degree is an honorary degree by invitation only (with no ritual).

Again, I apologize if you felt I was slighting the Scottish Rite or the 32nd degree.

I simply hate to see the 32nd degree used as that "secret point where Masons finally learn the big secret.. that we actually worship Satan!)

Then again, I've read that the "secret degree" is everything from the KT degree to the 32nd degree to the 33rd degree.

[elshamah]

Jun 10, 2008 12:20:36 GMT @prometheus said:

Jun 10, 2008 11:11:22 GMT elshamah said:

have you ever made the attempt, to go through each of these accusations, and try to UNDERSTAND them from a other perspective ? Did you ever take a study bible in your hands, and studied all these passages, to see a other point of view ?

Expect not from another that which you steadfastly refuse to expect from yourself.

That is a sin.

Should you apply for yourself the same "wisdom" you offer so steadfastly to others, you would find that Freemasonry is not what you claim it to be.

Doctor, heal thyself!

P

to do so by myself, i would have to become a freemason.
However, i don't think i have to, since the testimony of ex masons is trust worthy for me.

[elshamah]

Jun 10, 2008 12:34:54 GMT AndyF said:

Allright Angelo, here is some homework for you. If you look around on the internet you'll be able to find postal addresses, phone numbers, websites, and email addresses of Grand Lodges from all over the world. They've nothing to hide, to the contrary, they want to publicise the order to try to turn around a decline in membership.

how good.

Now then, as there is nothing secret about the existance of our organisation or its governing bodies, why would we hide an international head office? Surely such a thing would be so important to Freemasons everywhere, that its contact details would be easy to find? That, and it would be impossible (and pointless) to hide. Seriously, why hide your head office? Why deny there is one? Each jurisdiction operates seperately with its own Grand Lodge. We don't need one Grand Lodge with one set of rules

...actually, if you look around this forum you'll find discussions amongst masons debating this very point. Why would they be discussing the pros and cons of forming one governing body if it already existed?

The sites you are quoting from are making a buck by selling books about conspiracy theories and supposed exposes. A lot of the stuff on there has since been admitted to be a hoax by the very source of the information, many years ago.

So the people who originaly made this stuff up, admitted they made it up. Even if they decided not to confess, It has all been largely debunked and disproved many times by many people, both masons and non-masons.

well, might you be able to come up with a source, with a link, with founded and well researched arguments, that back's up your defense ?

[elshamah]

Jun 10, 2008 12:25:31 GMT @prometheus said:

Jun 10, 2008 11:23:27 GMT elshamah said:

...isn't it remarkable that Jesus embraced the old testament, without criticizing anything ?

Much like Jesus did not criticize the OT even though it is filled with all of what Brother Max has shared, so brilliantly I might add, isn't it remarkable that you cannot not criticize Freemasonry?

While your Brother Max is critizising God, the almighty, based on his ignorance of fact's, i am critizising a human construct, of which i still do not understand the reason to exist. Specially with all its symbols.
Might you post here a official homepage of freemasonry with the symbols, that freemasonry admits, it uses for its ritus etc ? Than we will see what the meaning is of them.....

WWJD! CANNOT YOU FIND EVEN A SMALL ASPECT OF THIS BEHAVIOR THAT JESUS MODELED HERE AND APPLY IT IN YOUR LIFE?

I do apply the one, Jesus used against the Pharisees. Something wrong about it ?

[elshamah]

Jun 10, 2008 12:52:33 GMT AndyF said:

Jun 10, 2008 12:42:17 GMT @leonardo said:

Angelo's position is, in my view - beyond any doubt - irreconcilable with reason.

...but has he stated a position? I've seen lots of implications and questions and biblical quotes, but no outright "I reckon this..."

I'd love to hear that. Just once. Make a point, man!

ok. i think born again christians should not involve with freemasonry.
Christianity is God-inspired. Freemasonry is inspired by the Devil.

[elshamah]

Jun 10, 2008 12:58:05 GMT @prometheus said:

Bon Yoyage and G-dspeed!

we say here in brazil : idem. or, translated : same to you.

I hope your voyage is to heaven as well. As is mine.

[marcopolo]

"How can you be sure it was a hoax?" Well, because everyone KNOWS it is, the hoaxer admitted it was, and the facts prove it. Pretty simple really....

Here is some information to prove it was a hoax. And, unlike your sources, these are not "my" sources. This from "US News and World Report" (One of the most respected news sources in the US)


In the August 26 - September 2, 2002 issue of U. S. News & World Report with half of the issue devoted to the foolishness of lies which seem to have deceived SO many. Devoting half of the issue to exploring hoaxes from the present to deep into the past, they selected ten of history's 'greatest' hoaxes and prioritized them as follows:

#1 - The D is for Deception - The story of how the Allies managed to deceive the Axis powers keeping the D-Day attack a secret and saving untold likes;

#2 - Hooked on a crooked book - An Antisemitic fraud born a century ago wins new converts explains how the Protocols of the Elders of Zion continues to be defame today.

#3 is Devil in a red fez - The lie about the Freemasons lives on which explains the infamous Taxil hoax.


It was a practical joke which has gone on to have a 'life of its own': Gabriel Jogand-Pagès, better known as Léo Taxil, was born in France in 1854 and educated by the Jesuits who caused him to be embittered toward religion. Taxil became a 'free-thinker' and actually joined Masonry but was expelled as a result of wrong-doing. Further angered, he chose revenge in a literary manner and decided - perhaps in an effort to redeem himself with Masonry by making the Roman Catholic Church look foolish - to ridicule their credulity about Freemasonry by creating an elaborate story in which the leader of the Southern U.S. Scottish Rite, Albert Pike, was the brunt of the fabrication.


This hoax supposedly 'revealed' a highly secret Masonic order called the Palladium - which existed in Taxil's imagination only. Taxil claimed that the Palladium practiced murder, devil worship, and more. In his book, Taxil utilized Levi's "Baphomet" and to this day, anti-Masons often make the charge that Masons "worship" a God called "Baphomet" - or Satan.

In 1897, Taxil publicly confessed to the hoax, just as he was being acclaimed all over Europe for his 'religious zeal'.

When Taxil admitted his hoax in 1897, De La Rive wrote:
"With frightening cynicism the miserable person we shall not name here [Taxil] declared before an assembly especially convened for him that for twelve years he had prepared and carried out to the end the most sacrilegious of hoaxes. We have always been careful to publish special articles concerning Palladism and Diana Vaughn. We are now giving in this issue a complete list of these articles, which can now be considered as not having existed."

Note: ((From marcopolo: So, whenever you se De La Rive quoted, or the quote from Pikes which begins: "On July 14, 1889, Albert Pike, Sovereign Pontiff of Universal Freemasonry, addressed to the 23 Supreme Confederated Councils of the world the following instructions...." you have run, headlong, into the Taxil Hoax.

So, since the original author ADMITTED it was a hoax, the original PUBLISHER recanted it and apologized, and Major news sources had PROVEN it was a hoax. I'm going to say it was a hoax, no?

Now do you see why you should be embarrassed for posting such lies? It's not only offensive to us, it's bearing false witness and is offensive to God, right?

[marcopolo]

Could you confirm whether or not you believe the following? (Simple yes or no.)
If not, please tell me on a scale of 1-10 how plausible you find them. (I will answer below as an example)


1. ALL CHURCHES LIE! (Um, I'm assuming you don't believe that.)

marcopolo: 1. ALL is too broad. Some churches may lie, but I feel the vast majority are presenting what the believe to be true.

2. The government is about to start planting microchips into all citizens.

marcopolo: 1. Nonsense. (Do I hear black helicopters?)

3. Mind control is being exercised by the Beatles.

marcopolo: 1. Nonsense. (Shall I make my tinfoil hat now?)

4. The Illuminati (along with Masons) planned 9/11

marcopolo: 1. Nonsense. Not only nonsense, but particularly offensive as I knew people involved in this tragedy.

[elshamah]

Jun 10, 2008 13:01:05 GMT marcopolo said:

elshamah,

The very sites you referenced also contain the following:

1. ALL CHURCHES LIE! (Um, I'm assuming you don't believe that.)
2. The government is about to start planting microchips into all citizens.
3. Mind control is being exercised by the Beatles.
4. The Illuminati (along with Masons) planned 9/11

And my absolute favorite. That George W. Bush is openly (in front of photographers and a public event) showing a "satanic symbol." When I looked at the picture, I literally choked on my coffee. It is George W. Bush giving the famous "Hook 'em Horns!" sign of the University of Texas Football Team. (Where he daughter was attending college at the time) This is a sign that is so well known here in Texas (Where President Bush was giving the speech) that it is laughable to any Texan to see anything in that sign. (BTW, our rivals, the Texas A&M Aggies use a "Thumbs up" sign for "Gig 'em Aggies!", I can only imagine what crazy satanic reference that must be.)

Do you really feel credible posting links to that site? Do you believe the other theories listed there are credible or honest?

Here is something you quoted earlier (Have you read the book you are quoting?)


"'The signs, symbols and inscriptions date from...the Sumerian civilizations..., Chaldea [Babylon], Assyria, Greece, Rome and even in Mexico and Yucatan... Some rites of the Scottish rite of Freemasonry of our Mother Jurisdiction have been in existence from time immemorial. For we teach the same grand truths, the same sublime philosophies...as those adepts of the ancient mysteries taught in their esoteric rites' - Henry C. Clausen, 'Messages for a Mission' [the Supreme Council 33rd degree, A & ARFM, Mother Jurisdiction of the World, 1971] 5-7"


Here is what was actually written in the book:

1. First of all, don't you find it a bit odd that all of the quotes are filled with "....information...."?
2. The "mysteries and philosphies" that are taught through this symbolism? Here are quotes on what the author wrote about what was being taught.

"We teach our members the highest ethics, the wise expositions of philosophy and the blessings of charity. Our code of conduct stems from the precepts of Chivalry, the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule."

YIKES! Teaching Chivalry, The Precepts of the 10 Commandments and The Golden Rule! (GASP!) How dark and nefarious! (Sarcasm)

What other dark secrets are these Masons up to? (BTW, you are, again, quoting one man's opinion of the Scottish Rite of Masonry.. Just like you did with Pike.) While I personally agree more with this man's interpretation, it is still not (as their IS NOT) a "universal/uniform/dogmatic teaching of what The Scottish Rite (much less Masonry as a whole) believes:

OK, back to the dark secrets and quotes:

"We stand for positive programs but fight with moral courage and enthusiasm every force or power that would seek to destroy freedom, including spiritual despotism and political tyranny. We believe and teach that sovereignty of the state resides in control by the people themselves and not in some self-appointed dictator or despotic totalitarian. We therefore advocate complete separation of church and state, absolute freedom and protection of religion, press and assembly, and the dignity of every individual. Those we consider vital for the ultimate liberties and independence of our people."

Oh no! Who would teach such aberrant and dark things! (sarcasm) Ah, now I understand why the Catholic Church (which was very political and corrupt at the time) went after Masonry with a vengeance. NOW I understand why the likes of Hitler and Stalin despised Masons.

Again, at the risk of sounding offensive, you are either not very bright or not very honest. I'm not sure which it is. You quote a book, which you have never read, completely out of context. I'm able to use the EXACT same book to show you what you are saying is nonsense.

And yet you STILL have the audacity to continue to quote these pages, which we have shown over, and over, and over to either create false information out of thin air, or to cut and paste quotes to fit their lies.

i agree with you. cutting edge has a lot of hoax information.
So not the best source to make a point.
however, it will be a hard job of freemasons, to prove that all ex masons are liers.

some here have alleged there does not exist such a thing as a freemason way to get saved. a plan of salvation. however, ex freemasons testify, there exists, yes sir, such a way. so ? do you deny it ? Is Jesus the only way to heaven, or not ?

www.emfj.org/bline.htm



At the conclusion of the Legend of the Third Degree, the new Master Mason is admonished to imitate Hiram Abiff so that he may get into the Celestial Lodge above where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. Masonic ritual teaches that imitation of Hiram Abiff is the way to reconciliation with God, whom they refer to as the Supreme, or Great, Architect of the Universe.

[elshamah]

Jun 10, 2008 13:26:23 GMT marcopolo said:

BTW, and I mean this sincerely. It may help your understanding of some of these quotes if you understand the following:

Most of what you are quoting is from the Scottish Rite. (I will explain this, though it is already explained in my short paper I've asked you many times to read and have posted links to!)

The Scottish Rite is an appendant (i.e. extra/optional/separate) body of Freemasonry. Many Masons do not belong to the Scottish Rite. The Scottish Rite has up to the "33rd Degree", but this is somewhat misunderstood. While all Masons take the first 3 degrees individually, The Scottish Rite does not. In my jurisdiction you can receive 32 of the degrees on THE SAME DAY. (I'm just explaining in case you somehow believe that a "32nd Degree Mason" is a high level or all-wise scholar of Freemasonry.

The Scottish Rite is also, (IMO), by far the most "philosophical" rite. Meaning they are very interested in studying history, great thoughts and thinkers throughout history. Plato, Socrates, etc. They also study the great human concepts (charity, liberty, freedom, equality) throughout history. Just like I think understanding the Magna Carta gives me a better understanding and deeper respect for the United States Constitution, and how it came to be. So do many Masons study the history of philosophy.

That being said, you now understand why some of the more "inflammatory" (in your view) statements all come from quotes on the Scottish Rite. You see, people tend to really bring their personal views of the world to the Scottish Rite.

There are 2 other "major" (at least in the US) appendant bodies which you have not quoted from a single time. Not once. The York Rite and the Shrine.

I didn't want to assume you were aware of why some of the quotes you were reading that were attributed to "Masonic Authors" (and being dishonestly attributed as Masonic Authorities, and being held up as Universal Masonic beleifs) were seemingly contradictory and may even be controversial.

ok. lets link to a page, that has to do with the York rite :

www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20Government/Federal%20Reserve%20Scam/satan_on_our_dollar.htm

[marcopolo]

Ugh. Again? Are you serious?

Yes, I know what some people have claimed.

Yes, I "deny" that there is a Masonic plan of salvation. (Because there isn't)

And Yes, I (personally) believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven.

That last quote is not accurate, and is not true. I was never, ever told to imitate Hiram Abiff to get into heaven. Utter nonsense.

I was never, ever taught that Hiram Abiff is the way (or even A way) to reconciliation with God.

Seriously, you sound ridiculous posting this stuff. About as ridiculous as I would if I started (and kept) asking you why the government is planting chips in peoples heads.

[marcopolo]

Jun 10, 2008 15:32:20 GMT elshamah said:

Jun 10, 2008 13:26:23 GMT marcopolo said:

BTW, and I mean this sincerely. It may help your understanding of some of these quotes if you understand the following:

Most of what you are quoting is from the Scottish Rite. (I will explain this, though it is already explained in my short paper I've asked you many times to read and have posted links to!)

The Scottish Rite is an appendant (i.e. extra/optional/separate) body of Freemasonry. Many Masons do not belong to the Scottish Rite. The Scottish Rite has up to the "33rd Degree", but this is somewhat misunderstood. While all Masons take the first 3 degrees individually, The Scottish Rite does not. In my jurisdiction you can receive 32 of the degrees on THE SAME DAY. (I'm just explaining in case you somehow believe that a "32nd Degree Mason" is a high level or all-wise scholar of Freemasonry.

The Scottish Rite is also, (IMO), by far the most "philosophical" rite. Meaning they are very interested in studying history, great thoughts and thinkers throughout history. Plato, Socrates, etc. They also study the great human concepts (charity, liberty, freedom, equality) throughout history. Just like I think understanding the Magna Carta gives me a better understanding and deeper respect for the United States Constitution, and how it came to be. So do many Masons study the history of philosophy.

That being said, you now understand why some of the more "inflammatory" (in your view) statements all come from quotes on the Scottish Rite. You see, people tend to really bring their personal views of the world to the Scottish Rite.

There are 2 other "major" (at least in the US) appendant bodies which you have not quoted from a single time. Not once. The York Rite and the Shrine.

I didn't want to assume you were aware of why some of the quotes you were reading that were attributed to "Masonic Authors" (and being dishonestly attributed as Masonic Authorities, and being held up as Universal Masonic beleifs) were seemingly contradictory and may even be controversial.

ok. lets link to a page, that has to do with the York rite :

www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20Government/Federal%20Reserve%20Scam/satan_on_our_dollar.htm

You can't be serious. That link has nothing to do with the York Rite, other than to somehow link the number of degrees in the York Rite to the conspiracy theory that US currency "proves" that Masons rule the world.

You would have to be severely mentally impaired to believe that the US Seal created in 1782 (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seal_of_the_United_States

is linked to the number of degrees of the York Rite (as established in 1813). (Then again, I'm sure Masons have figured out how to bend the time-space continuum as well)


BTW, this is YOUR Source:

SOURCE: The New World Order, back cover, by Ralph A. Epperson; 1990; ISBN: 0-9614135-1-4; publisher: PUBLIUS PRESS, Tucson, Arizona.

Here's an interesting quote:

First of all I will interpret the Latin words on the seal. 'Annuit Coeptis' means 'Announcing The Birth Of' and 'Novus Ordo Seclorum' means 'New World Order'. So therefore it says 'Announcing the birth of the New World Order'. "

(Umm, NO, it doesn't Novus Ordo Seclorum" means "New Order of the Ages") en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novus_Ordo_Seclorum

From this page we also see George W. Bush flashing the "satanic" sign I mentioned earlier. (Which is, in fact the "hook 'em horns" sign used by all University of Texas Fans.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_%27em_Horns
www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/pages/proudtrads/hookem.html

And, yes, according to the very site you posted, the New World Order is Jewish... and Communist... and Masonic... and part of the Illuminati.

It took me less that 10 minutes to disprove the garbage on the very site you posted, with open source (not masonic, not religious) sites.

I think I would spent a bit more time researching my opinions before I started spouting them, much less claiming others to be "satanic".

Aren't you embarrassed? Convicted? How do you possibly assign any credibility to these sites? How do you expect us to assign YOU any credibility?

[billmcelligott]

Angelo write:
however, it will be a hard job of freemasons, to prove that all ex masons are liers.

No only the ones that tell lies. They will show themselves for what they are, just give it time.

some here have alleged there does not exist such a thing as a freemason way to get saved. a plan of salvation. however, ex freemasons testify, there exists, yes sir, such a way. so ? do you deny it ? Is Jesus the only way to heaven, or not ?

www.emfj.org/bline.htm

At the conclusion of the Legend of the Third Degree, the new Master Mason is admonished to imitate Hiram Abiff so that he may get into the Celestial Lodge above where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. Masonic ritual teaches that imitation of Hiram Abiff is the way to reconciliation with God, whom they refer to as the Supreme, or Great, Architect of the Universe.

Well lets look at the bending of what is fact then, without actually calling someone a liar.

At the conclusion of the Legend of the Third Degree, the new Master Mason is admonished to imitate Hiram Abiff

The Master Mason is made to represent Hiram Abiff to demonstrate to all in attendance the importance of fidelity. The ritual says

"The Brethren will take notice that in the recent ceremony, as well as in his present situation, our Brother has been made to represent one of the brightest characters recorded in the annals of Masonry, namely Hiram Abiff, who lost his life in consequence of his unshaken fidelity to the sacred trust reposed in him, and I hope this will make a lasting impression on his and your minds should you ever be placed in a similar state of trial."

Here we have this age old problem that I can not argue the facts without showing some of the ritual, the Anti mason has until recently been able to rely on Freemasons not doing so, things are changing though.

so that he may get into the Celestial Lodge above where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.

There is no mention in Masonic ritual that you must be a Master Mason in order to ascend to any kind of after life. There is a mention of a hope of a reunion with your Brethren, but it is not a right of passage.

Masonic ritual teaches that imitation of Hiram Abiff is the way to reconciliation with God

Again we come to the same point the detractor of Freemasonry has to try and prove that Freemasonry is a religion for the accusation to have effect. Show me where in Masonic Ritual that it says only those who imitate Hiram Abbiff will enter the kingdom of heaven, I have asked the Ex Masons for Jesus guys a thousand times and they have never been able to supply the answer so far.

whom they refer to as the Supreme, or Great, Architect of the Universe.

Same question as before, who then is the Great Architect of the Universe ? Is there more than one or maybe it could be the God of the Bible. The same Bible that is open in the Lodge at the time of this Guy being made a Master Mason.

Read the Masonic ritual for yourself and show me where it says a man can get into heaven by just being a Master Mason.

It is a simple challenge.

[droche]

Angelo, you wrote:

At the conclusion of the Legend of the Third Degree, the new Master Mason is admonished to imitate Hiram Abiff so that he may get into the Celestial Lodge above where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. Masonic ritual teaches that imitation of Hiram Abiff is the way to reconciliation with God, whom they refer to as the Supreme, or Great, Architect of the Universe.

You wrote this or something very similar in one of your previous posts, and I told you that nothing like this exists in any ritual that I have seen, and I am known for my knowledge of Masonic ritual. I asked you where you got this from and you refused to answer, so you can quit beating that dead horse.

I can now see it clearly. You will never understand Freemasonry because:

a. You do not want to.

b. You are incapable of doing so in your present state. Your mindset makes it impossible:

You thrive on conflict; Freemasonry thrives on harmony.

You thrive on tearing down others; Freemasonry thrives on building them up. That is why the symbology of building the temple is used in Freemasonry- to build up and inspire people.

You thrive on taking little bits of information here and there (much of it nonexistent), distorting them and taking them out of context to fit what you want to believe and say; Freemasonry attempts to look at the big picture (Hence, Grand Architect of the Universe) and discern the truth.

No, you will never understand Freemasonry; what is humorous, no, really tragic, is that you don't know that you will never understand it. You will continue to go on your merry way living in your own fool's paradise, but the truth of the matter is that the ways of Freemasonry are closer to Christ and Christianity than your own.

[corab]

Jun 10, 2008 14:59:25 GMT elshamah said:

However, i don't think i have to, since the testimony of ex masons is trust worthy for me.

Have you ever actually met any of these ex masons you put such great trust in?

Oh wait. You've got me on ignore. How silly of me. Would anyone else like to carry my point?

[corab]

Prom,

Jun 10, 2008 16:30:14 GMT @prometheus said:

The mere fact that they are ex masons tells us that they are men that refused to keep their word.

Sorry to pick you up on this Bro:., but I think you need to re-read that statement.

The fact that a Bro:. resigns from the Craft does not automatically mean s/he will forsake the Obligations s/he has taken.

[leonardo]

Jun 10, 2008 16:59:55 GMT @corab said:

Prom,

Jun 10, 2008 16:30:14 GMT @prometheus said:

The mere fact that they are ex masons tells us that they are men that refused to keep their word.

Sorry to pick you up on this Bro:., but I think you need to re-read that statement.

The fact that a Bro:. resigns from the Craft does not automatically mean s/he will forsake the Obligations s/he has taken.

Agree totally, though I believe P. in this case is on about those who, once left would then start spreading lies; talking trash about the Craft, perhaps to further their reputations, etc...