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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 13, 2008 6:13:43 GMT
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Post by AndyF on Jun 13, 2008 6:53:21 GMT
...and some other stuff you may have missed: - Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. I was told when joining that if I was looking toward Lodge membership as a religion or a substitute for religion, not to bother applying. - No one, and nothing, is worshipped in a Masonic lodge. This is mainly because it is not a religion. It offers no path to salvation. Religious discussion is banned in Lodge. - There is no "universal ideal" of Freemasonry. This is like looking for the universal ideals of philosophers: they all have different ideas and often disagree. I'm sorry if this inconveniences you by making it difficult criticise us. We're all different, have different beliefs, and interpret the lessons and symbols of Freemasonry in our own way. - Your church may say not to worship along side people of other faiths. This won't be a problem, as worship does not take place in a Masonic Lodge (mainly because it is not a religion). Are you allowed to sit in the same room as people from other faiths? If so, you'll be allowed to be a Freemason. Well, your church would allow you - no Masonic Lodge would consider your application after the way you've acted in this forum. - People join Masonic Lodges because they want to, not because they need to. |
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Post by AndyF on Jun 13, 2008 6:58:10 GMT
...any brother who left Freemasonry because he felt it was at odds with his faith has merely misunderstood, or formed an interpretation of his own which was largely different from the organisation's intent. Freemasonry isn't neccessarily incompatible with Christianity. You can twist words as much as you like to make it look that way, but we've said from the start, and still maintain, that Freemasonry contains nothing of an anti-christian nature. I hope this addresses the testimonies of former freemasons on those sites you keep linking to. No one needs to be a Freemason. Certainly lots of people want to be one. The question shouldn't be "why", but "why not?". It wont grant you salvation, or provide you with religious instruction, but it can be a fulfilling way to interact with others who value charity, morality, and Godliness. |
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 13, 2008 9:40:39 GMT
maximus
In freemasonry their is a section of ritual which is most clearly a section which is left over from when the ritual was Christian only:
Be careful to perform your allotted task while it is yet day. Continue to listen to the voice of Nature, which bears witness that even in this perishable frame resides a vital and immorta1 principle, which inspires a holy confidence that the Lord of Life will enable us to trample the King of Terrors beneath our fee, and lift our eyes to that bright Morning Star, whose rising brings peace and salvation to the faithful and obedient of the human race.
Which is the masonic version of:
Psalm 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
So, I have no fear of anything evil.
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Post by hollandr on Jun 13, 2008 10:16:17 GMT
Actually Bill I think you will find that is rather Egyptian. For example the Lord of Life is Horus the son of the Widow Isis and she is the one who tramples under her left foot the evil serpent Apopis who is likely the King of Terrors recorded in the Book of Job
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 13, 2008 10:26:58 GMT
Did you hear that? The Serpent is the "legitimate symbol" of Freemasonry! This is another admission by this Masonic author that Freemasonry worships Satan! What a monumental debacle, debating scripture with an ignoramus!? Snakes/Serpents The snake as a symbol of God as a saviour, giving hope and faith to mankind, is reflected in John 3:9-16,
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life.” |
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Post by lauderdale on Jun 13, 2008 10:54:09 GMT
Interestingly Roman Catholic iconography often depicts Mary the Mother of Christ treading on a serpent.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 13, 2008 11:32:18 GMT
Rather than being Satanically inspired, Freemasonry, which has Christian roots, might more accurately be said to be Christian inspired, with the eighteenth century attempts at making it more generic not being entirely successful. We find, for instance, references to the morning star ('Lucifer') and the raised serpent have scriptural associations with Jesus.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 13, 2008 11:55:56 GMT
It is lifted off the Ex Masons for Jesus web site. The quote comes from Pierce Dodson - This is information page at masonicinfo: We sometimes wonder about the discernment abilities of a 'pastor' who can read one small anti-Masonic book filled with lies and on that basis decide that an organization of 3-5 million men, many of whom are clerics, is anti-Christian. Dodson (who endorses the lies propounded by Jim Shaw in his book, "The Deadly Deception") went to a church in an unnamed Tennessee town "...(hoping) that the church was not full of Masons." It's odd that someone who wants to save souls seemed so threatened. Based on his attendance at a Southern Baptist Convention meeting where a resolution was discussed (see our page on Larry Holly for more information), his preconceived notions were affirmed. All of his subsequent problems with his church were then - in his mind at least - the result of the "New World Order" and Freemasonry. He cites a statement by a Deacon saying that he'd rather give up being a Deacon than quit the Masonic Lodge. Dodson cites this as an example of his lack of Christianity. To others reading such a statement, it's quite clear that this Deacon had no intention of giving up his religion or renouncing his beliefs in Christ; rather, he was willing to abdicate a position of church leadership if it meant there would be a conflict with a fraternity to which he belonged. Dodson quotes Adrian Rogers who said, in part, that "...it is better to stand alone with truth than to be wrong with the multitude." In reality, Dodson stands virtually alone in this case with lies and wrong. A speaker and supporter of the Ephesians 5-11 "ministry", you can read Dodson's laments there, where he states that he has not taken a pastorate since 1992 and has been effectively 'banned by the Masons'. Perhaps one might wonder about the motivations for this person's position.... www.masonicinfo.com/others_pg1.htmi have not read the above mentioned book, that the pastor readed, to have a own idea, for what reasons you claim, the book tells lies. But i can imagine, it is for the same reasons, my counterparts here in a general and superficial way, without examine the details, assert all homepages, i use as base to defend my standpoint, are hoax and lies as well. i mean, as long as anybody here can bring factual, convincing arguments, all anti masonic sites tell only lies, why should i believe its in fact true ? What i admit, is , there are in fact some sites, that exagerate, and , to give more emphasie to their case, make up things, that are pure speculations, or are in fact lies. But based on this isolated sites, like cutting edge, simply make the allegation, ALL anti masonic sites are only liying, cannot be believed. Exactly to avoid this, i have took base www.droit-humain.org/uk/html/links.htmlat my post nr. 728. a site, that comes from your own lines. i have shown the links for recommended organisations at this site. Only this fact alone is a undeniable proof, that almost ALL acusations made, that freemasonry is satanic, with satanic goals, are in fact true. Want you to admit it or not. It makes no difference. The facts talk for themself. The philosophies, symbols, rites, and objectives, are evil inspired, subversive, and offensive to any christian, filled with the holy gost, that are able to discern , what comes from the God of the bible, and what comes from the God of this world, the old serpent, Satan. |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 13, 2008 12:05:55 GMT
Did you hear that? The Serpent is the "legitimate symbol" of Freemasonry! This is another admission by this Masonic author that Freemasonry worships Satan! What a monumental debacle, debating scripture with an ignoramus!? Snakes/SerpentsThe snake as a symbol of God as a saviour, giving hope and faith to mankind, is reflected in John 3:9-16,
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life.” it is clear, that what the bible mentions, has a completely different meaning, than the serpent has for freemasonry. there are no parallels. |
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Post by tedfromiowa on Jun 13, 2008 12:06:55 GMT
It boils down to this. I am a Christian. No man can deny me of that. I happen to be a Freemason. It is not in conflict in any way. No matter what Angelo, or whomever the others are, say, they can not deny my faith between God and myself. you are free to simply ignore the presented facts . Who is loosing in this case. is you. Someday when you present a real fact, maybe then I can choose to ignore it. Oh wait, that would be a reflection of you. |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 13, 2008 12:11:10 GMT
makes me shudder, it is not the Freemasonry that I witness every day of the week. My Masonry has both feet firmly planted on the ground and has no other purpose other than to spread love and affection, belief in God, and the practical improvement of oneself, for the benefit of all. i will repeat. Only this presumtion that freemasonry is able to improve men, is a heresy. Men by its own is not able, and has no capability, to improve and transform its human nature. Only God can do this, through spiritual born again, as mentioned in Gospel John, chapter 3. |
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 13, 2008 12:11:25 GMT
Actually Bill I think you will find that is rather Egyptian. For example the Lord of Life is Horus the son of the Widow Isis and she is the one who tramples under her left foot the evil serpent Apopis who is likely the King of Terrors recorded in the Book of Job Then you have to explain apart from any editorialism. Romans 521so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Revelation 2 : 28just as I have received authority from my Father. 28I will also give him the morning star. Revelations 22 16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." Job 1814 He is torn from the security of his tent and marched off to the king of terrors. 2 Timothy10Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory. There is much evidence that Freemasonry was certainly up to the middle ages in Europe completely Christian. It was changed at the establishment of Modern Freemasonry say 1650 onward to disassociate itself from the Church. Where the pronouncement of a 'non Political' and 'non Religious' Fraternity was created. I would suspect this to be as a result of the influence of The Royal Society and the members thereof. |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 13, 2008 12:12:28 GMT
you are free to simply ignore the presented facts . Who is loosing in this case. is you. Someday when you present a real fact, maybe then I can choose to ignore it. Oh wait, that would be a reflection of you. Who does not WANT to hear, will not hear. This is your case. Want to have presented facts ? Read my post nr.728 |
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 13, 2008 12:12:57 GMT
What a monumental debacle, debating scripture with an ignoramus!?Snakes/Serpents The snake as a symbol of God as a saviour, giving hope and faith to mankind, is reflected in John 3:9-16,
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life.” |
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 13, 2008 12:16:26 GMT
i will repeat. Only this presumtion that freemasonry is able to improve men, is a heresy. Men by its own is not able, and has no capability, to improve and transform its human nature. Only God can do this, through spiritual born again, as mentioned in Gospel John, chapter 3. Would you deny God the possibility of acting through and using Freemasonry for that purpose? That is what we are here for!  |
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Post by tedfromiowa on Jun 13, 2008 12:21:55 GMT
Someday when you present a real fact, maybe then I can choose to ignore it. Oh wait, that would be a reflection of you. Who does not WANT to hear, will not hear. This is your case. Want to have presented facts ? Read my post nr.728 Whatever. I think you are looking into the mirror too much. It is you that does not hear or see. You have yet to think on your own. By the way, I posted a "real" freemason site a long time ago. Let see, like page 32 maybe. freemasonry.bcy.ca/Did you ever go to it? You had asked about symbols and their rational. You will also get more informed information than the hate site E5-11. |
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Post by tedfromiowa on Jun 13, 2008 12:26:04 GMT
makes me shudder, it is not the Freemasonry that I witness every day of the week. My Masonry has both feet firmly planted on the ground and has no other purpose other than to spread love and affection, belief in God, and the practical improvement of oneself, for the benefit of all. i will repeat. Only this presumtion that freemasonry is able to improve men, is a heresy. Men by its own is not able, and has no capability, to improve and transform its human nature. Only God can do this, through spiritual born again, as mentioned in Gospel John, chapter 3. Actually, it takes an open mind and free thinking to improve one's self. It takes God to improve one's spiritual self. |
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Post by hollandr on Jun 13, 2008 12:38:45 GMT
>Men by its own is not able, and has no capability, to improve and transform its human nature. Only God can do this,
Angelo
You will have no trouble with Freemasonry then.
Freemasons are taught to invoke the blessings of God upon all their laudable undertakings.
But I think you want to say that humans are basically powerless to improve themselves. And this is a common belief used to control people by encouraging them to feel powerless. It is not a good organisation that encourages powerlessness and dependency
Psalms 82:6 Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 13, 2008 12:48:43 GMT
makes me shudder, it is not the Freemasonry that I witness every day of the week. My Masonry has both feet firmly planted on the ground and has no other purpose other than to spread love and affection, belief in God, and the practical improvement of oneself, for the benefit of all. i will repeat. Only this presumtion that freemasonry is able to improve men, is a heresy. Men by its own is not able, and has no capability, to improve and transform its human nature. Only God can do this, through spiritual born again, as mentioned in Gospel John, chapter 3. And you elshamah presume to know the ways in which the Lord works. If we work our way through the Bible as you would have us do, we find almost on each page the lord chooses the lowest of the low, the ordinary person , the shepherd, the carpenter, the fisherman. not the kingly or the educated, because he sees into their soul, no man even a self proclaimed born again, evangelical christian has the ability to do this. The spirit of Religious faith is something that is between the one individual himself and God , no man has to pass your test or anyone elses. If we take your proposition then we can see that even a man of bad character and loose morals is equal to a man of good character and good morals and that there is no need to try to improve oneself because all we have to do is take a bath and say 'I am saved' , do you really think that God does not know the difference. The entire life and teachings of Jesus was an instruction manual to improve yourself. Why would he object to some of us trying to do just that. John 8 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Now here we see the same 'I am; used and what did Jesus mean by this. The previous lines give us some indication 54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." 57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" Then in Mathew 17 4Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." 5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" 6When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7But Jesus came and touched them. "Get up," he said. "Don't be afraid." 8When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus. 9As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead." 10The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" 11Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist. This is validation by Jesus that the Laws of Moses were just and right. And the laws were how man should live in practical terms. Thou shall have but one God, Thou shall not Kill etc. |
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Oct 25, 2024 19:03:35 GMT
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