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Post by jerohm on Aug 7, 2008 7:32:46 GMT
Dear Bro's, "Masonic Forum of Light" is a great place where I can discover some differences between French and brit Rituals. I'm very surprised that Brit Rituals haven' been "feminized", particularly in a co-masonic Order. In France, in LDH, men are Brothers, women are Sisters. In Female only masonry, feminization go further in the process. Women are Sisters (like in LDH), but the "name" of the officers have been feminizated too. For instance, in this lodges, there is not a Worshipful Master (Vénérable Maître), but a Worshipful Mistress (Vénérable Maîtresse). I am suprised too with the plural of "Brother". It isn't Brothers, but brethern : I didn't know this plural ! Old english maybe ? Or ? How do you explain this plural ? How do you see the non-feminization of brit rituals in co-masonry ? Is it the same in female only masonry ? Would you be pleased with such a feminization, or are you ok with your ritual as it is ? Thank you in advance for your lighting
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Post by lauderdale on Aug 7, 2008 10:42:45 GMT
I always refer to female members of LDH as "Brother" most prefer this as it underlines the equality that applies to all members irrespective of gender. There is one Lodge which does use "Sister" but personally I dislike this as I feel it goes against the spirit of Co-Masonry.
You are correct that Brethren is from an older English than in current usage and "Brothers" is an equally valid plural for Brother.
In LDH in the UK we do not refer to an RW Mistress of a Lodge should that person be female , but I have heard "Vénérable Maîtresse" used in respect of a female visitor to a GOdF Lodge meeting here in England which I visited.
To answer your final question I would not be pleased were our Rituals here in LDH UK to be "feminised" as you suggest.
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Post by corab on Aug 7, 2008 11:33:43 GMT
Bro:. Jerome, I think it is a matter of culture, both in terms of socio-geography of the Federation and in terms of lodge autonomy. The fact that in my motherlodge a gender-based distinction is made in terms of form of address is down to the fact that at the time the lodge made this decision we had many members from from continental Europe, where by and large this distinction appears to be common. We are the only lodge in the British Federation to do this, by the way. The British Federation leaves this -- and a fair few other decisions -- up to the individual lodges. Is it different in the French Federation, or is the feminisation simply a natural thing in Francophone culture? I personally dislike it intensely when I'm addressed as "Sister". I find it contrary to the principles upon which our Order was founded -- instead of expressing equality of men and women, I feel the usage of gender-based forms of address and titles underlines that all too common misunderstanding that gender should bear any relevance whatsoever on freemasonry. It does not. The term "Brother" is a title of honour; a phrase used to refer to a mason. When I rose up from the altar after having been made a mason, I heard the words "Rise, duly obligated Brother among freemasons." That is, I feel, what the title refers to: one whom has passed the trials of initiation, has taken his/her obligation and has been duly constituted a freemason. That is the title all of us may rightfully claim as theirs, regardless of gender. I guess you can tell I feel rather strongly about this ..? h.g.w., Cora
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 7, 2008 11:34:26 GMT
I suggest that referring to any non-sibling as 'Brother' may be done with the same spirit and intent regarding a man or a woman—as an expression of solidarity and equality. Something of this spirit and intent might not be so obvious if different terms were used.
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Post by jerohm on Aug 7, 2008 12:05:26 GMT
Is it different in the French Federation, or is the feminisation simply a natural thing in Francophone culture? Feminisation isn't a "natural" thing, of course In France (and not only in Free masonry), we are very interesting in sex equality. But this laudable interest can give strange things sometimes. Some years ago, some politic women have fighten to be called "madame LA ministre" or "madame LA maire" (maire is "mayor"). I think it's such a pity. A fonction, an office has no sex. That's the reason why, by the way, in our french LDH lodges, even if we have "sisters", all the officers are designed by un unisex appelation. I understand that you're very attached to be call "Brother", and I like your explanations But in France, I'm almost sure if we try to call some "sisters" "brothers" they're would be quite unhappy, and would say it's a scandale, a come back at the age of the stone ;D ...and the victory of machists
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Post by astraia on Aug 7, 2008 14:31:36 GMT
A corollary that might interest you Bro:. Cora and Jerome, is what happens in Greek (and why I get hopelessly confused when translating Freemasonry-specific language!) We do use a word equivalent of "sister" for female Freemasons but all that changes is the suffix - Brother = adelfos, Sister = adelfi. For a plural covering both genders the masculine plural is used, again - adelfi (though spelled differently). To address a male or female directly however, (as in your example Bro:. Cora) it would frequently be a generic vocative appellation, "adelfe". Don't mean to give a Greek grammar lesson but because, like Latin, even modern Greek has noun declensions, it allows some freedom when it comes to gender specific words. Also offices and professions in general tend to retain the masculine suffix (especially with regard to Masonic offices it would sound ridiculous and affectational if a feminine suffix were used), though sometimes the feminine article is used to denote that a lady holds the office. Eg. our word for Master of Ceremonies is "Teletarches", simply preceded by a feminine article when (as in our lodge) it's held by a lady. Only the word for WM has a proper feminine suffix and we do use that when speaking of a lady WM (Sevasmios = male, Sevasmia = female). I would tend to agree though that in general terms such offices and functions don't really need differentiation on the basis of gender - though it really is culture- specific as here it is neither derogatory nor complementary to address a female with masculine specific vocabulary - it is simply bad Greek to do otherwise! (and it is considered more of a faux pas to twist language to a PC function than it is to simply use it correctly !) Plus in lodge and rituals we use Purist Greek anyway, an older and far more formal version of the language
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Post by corab on Aug 11, 2008 20:13:13 GMT
This brings to mind an occasion Bro:. Steve and I have fond memories of. On the weekend before the inaugural meeting of the craft Triangle he and I are co-founders of we attended a practice in the very capable hands of the V. Ills. Bro. whom I had asked to be our Acting DC on that memorable occasion. On that same day a UK-based lodge of GOdF had its Banquet d'Ordre at our HQ, and the three of us were cordially invited to attend their lodge meeting and following on from that the Banquet d'Ordre. Although the Brn:. of GOdF are used to female masons attending their meetings, they seemed unsure as to where to place one of such high degree and how to address her. Eventually they settled upon seating her immediately to the right of the Vénerable Maître, and addressing her as Vénerable Maîtresse Passé ... oh my, but the look on her face ... "Worshipful Past Mistress"? ;D Which only goes to show how the cultural environment in which we experience our craft does influence the way we practice it. In France, as Bro:. Jérôme points out, the ladies would likely be offended if addressed in masculine form, whereas by and large the female members of the British Federation seem a little diffident about being addressed as "Sister". h.g.w., Cora
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Post by lauderdale on Aug 11, 2008 20:31:08 GMT
In the words of Maurice Chevalier "Oh yes I remember it well!" ;D Also why not tell them of the way I was "Fraternally Greeted" by one of the Brethren!
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Post by corab on Aug 11, 2008 21:35:25 GMT
Also why not tell them of the way I was "Fraternally Greeted" by one of the Brethren! Nah ... I couldn't possibly describe in words the look on your face at that particular moment. It'd best come from you.
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Post by lauderdale on Aug 11, 2008 22:34:59 GMT
Ok. Although I am an enthusiastic member of Le Droit Humain I retain a certain Anglo-Saxon reserve and still proffer my hand to a Brother of either gender rather than indulge in the hugs and kisses than many of my LDH Brethren prefer. This diffidence, even shyness, had been a matter of amusement.
On visiting the GOdF Lodge I again offered my hand but was kissed on both cheeks by one of the Male Members. I am reliably informed by Bro Cora that I was thunderstruck!
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 11, 2008 23:08:06 GMT
On visiting the GOdF Lodge I again offered my hand but was kissed on both cheeks by one of the Male Members. I am reliably informed by Bro Cora that I was thunderstruck! The Kiss of Peace was common in both the early church and among the Albigensians. I wonder if this was the source from which its Continental usage arose?
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Post by jerohm on Aug 12, 2008 5:13:52 GMT
On visiting the GOdF Lodge I again offered my hand but was kissed on both cheeks by one of the Male Members. ;D ;D ;D In France that's the way, and a great way in my opinion Kisses allow hearts to be closer... Everybody kiss everybody... And when I say Everybody, it is really everybody, including the Great Master ("grand maître" ?). By the way, I HATE a Bro offer his hand to me in profane world, while I usually kiss him before entering the temple (how do you say "parvis" ?). Actually, I don't like cold anglosaxon reserve... Dear Bro Cora, you say "In France, as Bro:. Jérôme points out, the ladies would likely be offended if addressed in masculine form". In LDH lodges, Sisters might be offended it called "Brethren" it's true. But they might be offended too if adressed in feminine form when they are officers... Very parodoxally, I agree
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Post by corab on Aug 12, 2008 11:48:43 GMT
Dear Bro Cora, you say "In France, as Bro:. Jérôme points out, the ladies would likely be offended if addressed in masculine form". In LDH lodges, Sisters might be offended it called "Brethren" it's true. But they might be offended too if adressed in feminine form when they are officers... Very parodoxally, I agree Oh man ...
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Post by astraia on Aug 12, 2008 15:08:37 GMT
Amusingly enough over here it's always three kisses - between all Brn:. regardless of gender. It's an insult not to.....
Because all Greeks kiss close acquaintances on both cheeks anyway, the 3 kisses are used to show recognition of Brn:. when meeting in public, so if anyone comes visiting be prepared for a lot of kisses!
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