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Post by brandt on Jul 24, 2009 13:37:44 GMT
I hope that nobody takes this the wrong way. "Faith" can also be a manifestation of neurosis; hearing voices, seeing things, possessing special knowledge without a shred of evidence, seeing proof around every corner that cannot be verified, and an irrational refusal to objectively view the subject. Reality is what it is even without our approval.
Brandt
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Post by humbleseeker1 on Jul 24, 2009 17:22:37 GMT
Know offense taken brother Brandt. That very well be true. Abraham of the old testament heard voices and obeyed, taking his family on a huge journey because of voices in his head. Those voices led him to the promise land. I am a huge beliver in science, I think Science and faith go hand in hand. King Solomon asked for wisdom and was given to him, he had to believe that he would recieve wisdom even when there was no proof it would actually be given him. He believed. The Apostles write that you can not please God without Faith. Another Apostle Paul said that the Cross of Christ is foolishness to those who do not believe. Yes Faith is foolish it boggles and steams the minds of scientist who can not believe beyond lab results. To me Faith not limited to Christianity but all those who profess a believe in a creator as Masons that I know do. Faith may be foundation of all things, not just in connection with God, but in everyday life.
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Post by brandt on Jul 24, 2009 18:01:36 GMT
The biblical inferences that you offer don't really add much to this discussion due to the fact that they were written well after the fact. So it is not "the Apostles write," it is those that are writing about the Apostles wrote... In this particular discussion we are seeking proof. Unfortunately in seeking proof we have to examine all evidence and theories brought forward with a skeptical eye. We continue to prove a piece of evidence or theory as incorrect until we are left with only one or a few answers that fit the evidence in front of us. In the search for knowledge no evidence or theory should be held as sacred and inviolable. The Christian bible is brought into question because we know that it has been edited and translated several times, each time introducing the high probability of error. We also know that many of these books were written well after the fact of the supposed historic events that they were supposed to report. I too am a fan of science. I also have no problem with faith. Science has not shaken my faith at all, if anything it has been refined because of it.
brandt
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 24, 2009 18:35:24 GMT
I have found my life enriched to a level not easily expressed since my rejection of faith.
Just my $0.02.
Love and Light,
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Post by humbleseeker1 on Jul 25, 2009 15:26:17 GMT
Then I would conclude, we can not prove God exist without faith.
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Post by brandt on Jul 25, 2009 16:31:22 GMT
Pretty much but faith doesn't prove it in a scientific context. There is no dissonance between faith and reason. It is actually quite healthy to have faith and reason in accord. "God" just doesn't fit into science. To look at the other side of the notion of proof, can we have faith that gravity doesn't work? Nobody wants to argue that because it is just numb skulled.
Faith doesn't prove it but it may answer the question for an individual.
Brandt
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Post by abri on Jul 25, 2009 17:09:05 GMT
The fool says in his heart "There is no God." (Psalm 14.1)
Open your eyes and observe nature. Evidence of God is EVERYWHERE.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. (Psalm 19.1)
YOU say you don't believe. Well, the Devil does ...
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (James 2.19)
Lastly, ignorance will be NO excuse!
God's law is in your heart wether you like it or not. What you and I do with it is what is important;
Which show that the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Wrote Paul in Romans 2:15-16)
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Post by maximus on Jul 25, 2009 18:06:08 GMT
The fool says in his heart "There is no God." (Psalm 14.1)Open your eyes and observe nature. Evidence of God is EVERYWHERE. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. (Psalm 19.1)YOU say you don't believe. Well, the Devil does ... Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (James 2.19)Lastly, ignorance will be NO excuse!God's law is in your heart wether you like it or not. What you and I do with it is what is important; Which show that the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Wrote Paul in Romans 2:15-16)
You'll have to do better than spouting off nonsense from a book written to scare people into believing. I don't believe in your devil, or your tribal war-god. I have my own. BTW, Paul never even met Jesus.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jul 25, 2009 19:22:02 GMT
I never met Jesus.
But I believe he was the most precious of all men that walked upon the Earth.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Psalm 23 just about covers all that I feel about my Faith.
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Post by brandt on Jul 25, 2009 23:54:32 GMT
Faith offers no objective proof, it does answer the question for the individual only. The question at the beginning was about proving the existence of god. No objective proof has been offered.
Brandt
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Post by billmcelligott on Jul 26, 2009 2:07:40 GMT
I can not prove the sun will come up tomorrow, but it always does.
I can not prove I love my wife, I just do.
I can not prove I believe in God I just do.
The only difference between my Wife and God is, if I do something wrong God does not hit me.
I am happy the way things are.
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Post by paulh on Jul 26, 2009 7:55:27 GMT
I think I have worked out the disproof:
- The human race is the most intelligent species
- I am the most intelligent human I have met
Therefore if God exists He would have spoken to me first
This may seem a little stark as an exposition but perhaps it gets to the core of the matter
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 26, 2009 9:13:47 GMT
As a firm believer in God and also in Our Lord Jesus Christ as His Son I cannot give the type of "proof" that the Academic or Scientist would demand. There is no equation that proves the existance of the Deity, no chemical that can be added to a test tube, no signal that can be shown on a scope.
For my own part I need no such "proof" . I am content when I look up to the sky on a clear night and see the stars, watch a nature programme on the TV and look at the wonderful diversity of animals , or a medical one illustrating the marvels of the human body. These did not arise out of some random accident but show the hand of a far greater intelligence than we can comprehend. For lack of a better name I am happy to call it God.
As for the Bible, a marvellous book but like all Volumes of Sacred Lore it is not literally true but an allegory in many parts , the Traditional History of the Jewish people and a biography of Christ and his Apostles. Books have been deleted by various Churches in the last 2000 years and much has been altered in the translations. My own take is that the Bible and its counterparts such as the Granth, Koran, Gita etc may well have been Divinely Inspired.
So I cannot give you any "proof" of God, but I don't actually need any myself. I am content to have Faith in the Creator, the Great Architect of the Universe. As they say these days "it works for me"
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Post by humbleseeker1 on Jul 26, 2009 14:10:44 GMT
Faith fort he individual is what I think its about. I dont know if you can spread faith, it is something that must come from within. I have always looked at science as a form of investigating the mind of God.
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Post by brandt on Jul 26, 2009 14:55:18 GMT
I can not prove the sun will come up tomorrow, but it always does. I can not prove I love my wife, I just do. I can not prove I believe in God I just do. The only difference between my Wife and God is, if I do something wrong God does not hit me. I am happy the way things are. I am sure that you are happy with the way things are. So am I. Side note: I am sure that you could with pen and paper, and perhaps a handy calculator, prove that the sun does apparently come up. The brain does light up (burns more sugar in certain areas) when one is happy. fMRI is a wonderful thing. brandt
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 26, 2009 18:45:01 GMT
As a firm believer in God and also in Our Lord Jesus Christ as His Son I cannot give the type of "proof" that the Academic or Scientist would demand. There is no equation that proves the existance of the Deity, no chemical that can be added to a test tube, no signal that can be shown on a scope. For my own part I need no such "proof" . I am content when I look up to the sky on a clear night and see the stars, watch a nature programme on the TV and look at the wonderful diversity of animals , or a medical one illustrating the marvels of the human body. These did not arise out of some random accident but show the hand of a far greater intelligence than we can comprehend. For lack of a better name I am happy to call it God. As for the Bible, a marvellous book but like all Volumes of Sacred Lore it is not literally true but an allegory in many parts , the Traditional History of the Jewish people and a biography of Christ and his Apostles. Books have been deleted by various Churches in the last 2000 years and much has been altered in the translations. My own take is that the Bible and its counterparts such as the Granth, Koran, Gita etc may well have been Divinely Inspired. So I cannot give you any "proof" of God, but I don't actually need any myself. I am content to have Faith in the Creator, the Great Architect of the Universe. As they say these days "it works for me"Bro.Steve, I see the same wonders you see. Like you I find them beautiful and remarkable. I too for a large part of my life I believed in the Christian God. Then I decided to really follow my brain and examine things more closely. I have come to a few conclusions. If and it is a big if, Jesus existed he is NOT represented in anyway by the Christian Bible. The Bible is full of plaugerism of earlier texts, contradictory "eye witness" accounts, a timeline that makes no sense and not to mention a twisted morality and core message that is repulsive to modern human beings. I would go as far as to say that IF Jesus is the son of God (or God or whatever) than the Bible must be 98.9% pure BS. It's the militancy, the xenophobia, jealousy and petiness that forces me as a man of morals and reflection to reject Christianity. Love and Light,
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 26, 2009 19:16:38 GMT
Bro Brad, on this we shall simply have to agree to disagree.
For me no proof is necessary, for you no proof is possible.
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 26, 2009 19:37:58 GMT
Bro Brad, on this we shall simply have to agree to disagree. For me no proof is necessary, for you no proof is possible. Bro.Steve, For me proof is possible, there just isn't any. It is impossible for me to believe that the Creator would have a book written and mention nothing that was not common place for desert dwelling peoples of the day. For a book on which salvation depends for all of humanity it is very unimpressive. Love and Light,
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Post by brandt on Jul 26, 2009 22:08:21 GMT
I am a member of an Antiochian Orthodox Church. The ceremonies and rites of the Eastern Church are beautiful to me. That does not put my brain on hold. Though my brain is not on hold I can participate in the rites of the Church and I derive great personal benefit from it. I consider myself to be a devout Christian though some manifestations of Protestantism may disagree. Doesn't matter much to me as my faith is mine and has nothing to do with anyone else. I am also involved in other orders that pursue a certain "primitive Christianity" and it does not interfere in anyway with science or Church.
brandt
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 26, 2009 22:23:54 GMT
I am a member of an Antiochian Orthodox Church. The ceremonies and rites of the Eastern Church are beautiful to me. That does not put my brain on hold. Though my brain is not on hold I can participate in the rites of the Church and I derive great personal benefit from it. I consider myself to be a devout Christian though some manifestations of Protestantism may disagree. Doesn't matter much to me as my faith is mine and has nothing to do with anyone else. I am also involved in other orders that pursue a certain "primitive Christianity" and it does not interfere in anyway with science or Church. brandt As a practioner or GD and other ceremonial magicks I am forced to deal with the Christian paradigm. Now, my menton WGH Ripel has told me "if you cannot deal with the Christian then quit" I don't quit, you should know that. I do look at Christian mythos the way I look at others.In that way it is all good. Love and Light,
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